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Author Topic:   Armstrong Signed Photo
JasonB
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posted 10-09-2003 01:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JasonB   Click Here to Email JasonB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello. Is there any way someone could give me their opinion of this Armstrong signed WSS on Ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2196014112&category=14438

I'm not too good at putting links up, so if it doesn't work, it's the one that starts at $199. Item number 2196014112. I just wanted to check before I go about possibly dropping a good deal of money. Thanks for the help!

chet
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posted 10-09-2003 05:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Looks good - - be prepared to spend upwards of $700 though!

-chet

JasonB
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posted 10-09-2003 05:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JasonB   Click Here to Email JasonB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks. 700 I can handle. It's the 1200-1500 that will make my wife put me out on the curb.

Dan Lorraine
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posted 10-09-2003 06:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dan Lorraine   Click Here to Email Dan Lorraine     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Chet,
No disrespect intended, but I don't know how you can say that it looks good from that low resolution scan??
Dan

chet
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posted 10-09-2003 07:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, the scan is small, but there's enough to go by; if this is a forgery it's one of the best I've seen.
The only thing that may be wrong, IMHO, is that this is a pre-printed signature, but I doubt that is the case.

-chet

Bob M
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posted 10-09-2003 07:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob M   Click Here to Email Bob M     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would suggest that anyone seriously interested in this Armstrong should request a larger & clearer scan before bidding. The signature is just small & blurry enough to make it difficult to really analyze.

The seller's story of getting it from a long time collector in 1985 sounds good, but it might be nice to learn who that collector was. "Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing:" Dr. Phil.

Bob Mc.

Scott
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posted 10-09-2003 08:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott   Click Here to Email Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree it looks authentic - and I also agree with everyone that you need a bigger scan to look at. Even more important than that, if the seller does not mention the condition, ask them. That way you have it in writing that they said it was excellent, mint, etc in case you get it and it is in not so great condition. Scans do not show all condition flaws and I never rely on a scan to completely judge condition.

gliderpilotuk
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posted 10-13-2003 05:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gliderpilotuk   Click Here to Email gliderpilotuk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well guess what? Another case of

"The seller ended this listing early because the item is no longer available".

Anyone own up to asking the seller to delist?
I've taken a hi-res print of the item so I can recognize it when it appears on some dealer's website at $1500 <LOL>.

Paul

JasonB
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posted 10-13-2003 11:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for JasonB   Click Here to Email JasonB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was going to bid on that photo too. It was definately a dissapointment when I saw that.

dsenechal
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posted 10-13-2003 12:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dsenechal   Click Here to Email dsenechal     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This looks a lot like the lithos that Mr. Frohman was selling a few years back.

[This message has been edited by dsenechal (edited October 13, 2003).]

Scott
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posted 10-13-2003 01:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott   Click Here to Email Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dsenechal:
This looks a lot like the lithos that Mr. Frohman was selling a few years back.

I looked at it again and I see your point, but it varies in some important ways and I believe this to be authentic. Also it does not have the goofy look the Frohman Peachstate forgeries have.

albatron@aol.com
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posted 10-15-2003 09:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for albatron@aol.com   Click Here to Email albatron@aol.com     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I emailed the seller advising him I was disappointed as I would have offered up to $3000 for this piece, and inquired as to why it closed early. Here is his response. Wait hey - you dont believe him? <LOL

<< I sold it to a friend. He was supposed to take it
for $500 a couple of weeks ago, but I never heard back
from him. 2 days after I listed it he showed up at
my house with cash and a slightly bettter offer. So,
I gave it to him. Sorry about that. If he ever
decides to sell it, I'll give him your email address. >>

gliderpilotuk
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posted 10-15-2003 10:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gliderpilotuk   Click Here to Email gliderpilotuk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well done, Al. He can't have known that you were busting his b***s, so in that context his response to having missed a $3k offer seems particularly weak (and suspect).
I've set myself a personal challenge: try and spot which website such de-listed pieces re-appear for sale on. I've already got one suspect from a previous prime-piece "buy-out".
Best,
Paul Bramley

chet
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posted 10-15-2003 11:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's fairly obvious that anytime a seller ends a listing early it's because an offer was tendered and accepted outside the auction forum. I just don't understand why that's a big deal, whether the item is purchased for re-sale later, or for some other reason. Why is it treated as if there is something sinister going on?

-chet

Robert Pearlman
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posted 10-15-2003 11:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Because:

(a) its explicitly against eBay's rules;

(b) it wouldn't be permissible during any respectable auction; and

(c) once bidding begins, an auction is a contract between the seller and potential buyers to sell to the highest bidder; when you end an auction early you are essentially defaulting on that contract.

chet
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posted 10-15-2003 12:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
With all due respect Robert, you sound like an Ebay spokesman.

I understand that ending an auction and selling outside of Ebay is against their rules because it means they don't make money, and I understand that doing such a thing wouldn't be possible in a "normal" auction setting, but my question was directed more at the "ethical" considerations others on this board seem to get in such a tizzy about.

Aside from Ebay rules, which are meant to protect and benefit only their interests, what is wrong with a seller pulling an item and selling it to someone off-line? It is basically still an auction where the seller has added a "Buy-It-Now" feature and is selling to the highest bidder. Aside from Ebay considerations (which I'm sure is not what troubles those who gripe about the practice of off-line selling), how is such selling unethical? Seems to me those complaining about it are just suffering from "sour-grapes-syndrome" - - you hear the same type of complaining about sniping too.

-chet

Robert Pearlman
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posted 10-15-2003 12:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by chet:
Aside from Ebay rules, which are meant to protect and benefit only their interests, what is wrong with a seller pulling an item and selling it to someone off-line?

I disagree that eBay rules only serve their interests. Yes, some are more beneficial to the seller (and in turn themselves) than the bidder, but in this case, the opposite is true (at least for the seller).

Selling on eBay is not a god-given right, its not protected by the Constitution and its not granted to you upon birth. When you decide to use eBay's services, you agree to abide by their terms. If you don't like them, go elsewhere.

And why shouldn't eBay get a commission from your sale? Without the advertising they provided you on their site, you would never have found that off-eBay buyer. So, the proper course of action is to suggest to the private buyer, either wait until the auction closes to see if it sells or participate in the bidding.

chet
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posted 10-15-2003 12:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As a capitalist, I agree with you Robert;
listing an item on Ebay and then selling it to someone else, thereby screwing Ebay out of their fees, is akin to pirating satellite tv signals - - you're, in essence, "stealing" their service. On that we are in full agreement, and it IS wrong.

However, my question was about the considerations that irk those who complain about it the same way sniping is complained about. I don't believe the "foot-stomping" associated with off-Ebay selling is about the indignation over Ebay's getting screwed.
THAT'S the phenomenon that puzzles me.

-chet

Robert Pearlman
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posted 10-15-2003 01:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why is it so puzzling? Auctions, by their very nature, involve a public sale on the part of the seller, and a private strategy of bidding on the part of buyer.

Whether that bidding has begun or not, once that auction has started, the buyers have been engaged in business with the seller.

When a seller closes an auction early, especially for a secretive deal elsewhere, he/she is abruptly ceasing business with the bidders, who put time and energy into devising their own strategies.

Imagine walking into McDonald's, seeing the Big Mac on the menu, waiting in line, feeling your craving for that burger increase, and when its your time to buy being told by the server, "Oh, sorry, we have only one and I'm going to sell that to the guy sitting in the restaurant next door."

Now wouldn't you be upset?

[This message has been edited by Robert Pearlman (edited October 15, 2003).]

072069
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posted 10-15-2003 01:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 072069   Click Here to Email 072069     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The biggest problem with sellers stopping auctions early is that many savvy eBayers wait until the very last few precious seconds of an auction to place their bids.

I've seen plenty of eBay auctions skyrocket from $20 bucks or so in the final minutes of the auction to close in the hundreds of dollars. Sellers who are unfamiliar with that routine may think their item has not attracted any attention during the auction's seven days and jump at an "outside eBay" offer because they just don't see anyone bidding.

I've never seen a great item up for auction on eBay that didn't get at least two or three last second bids -- in fact, I've lost a number of items that way myself :-)

Bernie

chet
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posted 10-15-2003 01:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No, I wouldn't be upset, because I don't feel any sense of entitlement to the burger.

No transaction is ever completed until it's been consummated; that's what escrows are for in Real Estate dealings, for example. If such a transaction falls out of escrow, there is grumbling, yes, but not because anything unsavory has gone on; it all has to do with expectations.

Any grumbling has to do with a sense of entitlement, just as some bidders gripe about sniping, because they feel an item has been "stolen" out from under them, even though they had the exact same opportunity as the sniper.

Nothing unethical, just sour grapes is all, if you ask me.

-chet

Robert Pearlman
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posted 10-15-2003 01:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you consign an item to Christie's or Sotheby's, from the point the catalog is printed onwards that item is no longer yours to sell. You sign over your rights to sell that item to the auction house.

The same should be (and for the most part is) true with eBay.

When you start an eBay auction, you technically no longer have the right to sell it elsewhere. You have entered an agreement with eBay that is the very basis for which bidders agree to participate.

And yes, I do believe, at its heart, the violation of eBay's rules and the effect it has on the process for all involved is the reason for most of the complaints.

chet
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posted 10-15-2003 06:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
True, with Christies and/or Sotheby's auctions you really can't back out; it's part of the deal, and they have possession.
Ebay is different - - they give you the option of ending the auction early, albeit it's not there to be taken undue advantage of.

And I might agree those who complain about off-Ebay selling were genuinely troubled about the Ebay rule breaking, but for the fact that the same type of grumbling goes on when it comes to sniping, which is fully sanctioned by Ebay. There really must be more to it than you, or they, want to admit to, Robert.

-chet

gliderpilotuk
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posted 10-15-2003 07:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gliderpilotuk   Click Here to Email gliderpilotuk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Chet, well done - you've achieved your objective of riling one of the so-called "sour-grapes" merchants into responding.
Firstly, no-one on this or any other board has a given right to challenge the views of others in a way that says: "there must be something suspicious behind your views". I know that this is the current thought process adopted by one or two politicians, but free speech stills reigns for a little while longer.
To the point: my p.o.v. is that I have seen items disappear off ebay listings and reappear on dealers' websites at a multiple of their fair market value. Fair enough that's what you call capitalism, but it doesn't half piss off those who want a nice piece for their collection, obtained (a) under level playing field rules and (b) through COMPETITIVE bidding rather than at an artificially inflated price just because someone steals the rug from under them.
I have no other axe to grind than this. No sinister motive, no desire to get even with anyone.
Guess I just want to see fair play, which is a rare and unappreciated commodity these days.
Paul Bramley

BTW I agree that eBay's tacit sanctioning of sniping is in complete contradiction to their view on early close-outs and only a fine line divides the two.

chet
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posted 10-16-2003 12:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry Paul, if you feel I've stepped on your toes....that was NOT my intention. And if I may correct further, I never said that you, or others who might feel like you do, aren't entitled to your views, or that there must be something "suspicious" about them; I was merely trying to point out that you (i.e., the collective you) weren't being forthcoming about them. Instead, all I seemed to be getting was the insistence that the practices of off-line selling and on-line sniping are so wrong and unethical that those who engage in them should feel shame and guilt over their actions. I never tried to muzzle you or anyone else, - - my beef was that you weren't speaking up! But now that you have, I must say that what you wrote only solidifies MY views.

I really don't understand what you mean when you write that it pisses you off to see items "disappear", only to see them re-appear in other venues, at multiples of their "fair market value". Paul, you know that there is a vast difference between what someone will ask for an item, and what it might actually sell for; nothing sells at "over fair market value". As I pointed out, what we really have here is a set of dashed expectations following a false sense of entitlement. No item is "yours" until it is physically delivered to you, and it is even less yours if the current owner chooses to sell it to someone else in the first place. What on Earth leads you to believe that you have a special "right" to bid on an item merely because you might really want it for your collection? The same griping goes on about sniping as well.
Where the rules of the game are clearly understood beforehand, and in an on-line world where web-based automatic sniping services abound, you continue to insist that anyone who engages in sniping isn't playing by the rules, that the playing field isn't level. Where is the logic in your statement?

I remember a couple of years ago I won an item I was really after, by last second sniping it. A few moments after the auction ended I received a nasty e-mail from a young female college student who related how heartbroken she was that she lost out on that item at the last moment, and how dastardly she thought I was, and how badly she wanted that item, yadda, yadda, yadda.... I wrote back to her and explained that it was wrong for her to assume she "should've" won the item just because she wanted it so badly; I asked, did she think I wanted it, or deserved it less, than she? Fortunately, she was reasonable about it, saw that her initial position was inappropriate, and APOLOGIZED for sending such a snippy e-mail.

I fail to grasp why you fail to understand what this girl managed to.

"Fair play", as you put it, means playing by the rules. But when the rules say sniping is fair game, you complain that the playing field isn't level. If you choose not to engage in sniping, that is YOUR choice, but it's wrong to accuse others of not playing fair just because they use a tactic made available to all just because you may have a particular disdain for it.
It is also my opinion that a seller hasn't an obligation to sell a $1000 item for substantially less just because he's already committed his $4.00 listing fee to Ebay.

Is it frustrating to drool over the prospect of bidding on an item you really don't want to see slip away, and then have that exact thing happen? You bet! But do you feel you have a "right" to bid on that item? Not in any real world I've ever experienced. Sorry we disagree over this, but I guess that's how it will have to be.

-chet

[This message has been edited by chet (edited October 16, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by chet (edited October 16, 2003).]

gliderpilotuk
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posted 10-16-2003 05:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gliderpilotuk   Click Here to Email gliderpilotuk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Chet, you raise some good points and sorry, if I overreacted to your stance.
But I'm afraid I do draw a distinction between sniping and a direct approach to a seller - if only because, as I said, ebay tacitly sanctions sniping, but (as Robert eloquently pointed out) approaching a seller to buy something off-auction is strictly against the rules.
Now, are we going to be able to do anything about this? You bet not. It's the status quo and it's totally contradictory.
I don't feel any God-given right to bid on an item, but if "rules is rules" then let's all play by them and let ebay attempt to pursue those who don't. Incidentally, I don't have any personal grudge about this. I've never had an item that I wanted snatched from under my nose, but I have been sniped many times - fair enough I should have bid higher.
To come back to fair market prices, how do you explain that 2 items I KNOW were likely to have been purchased off-auction still sit on dealers' sites, many months after there were bought?? Maybe I'm being sentimental in that I believe a COLLECTOR would place more inherent value in having this item in his/her collection than the ridiculous monetary value attributed to it by a dealer who is uninterested in its intrinsic non-financial value. Don't get me wrong many dealers help collectors a lot, but at the end of the day they are mostly business-people.
Incidentally a "Shepard on the moon" http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3631915332&category=13903&rd=1

disappeared off its ebay listing last night - you didn't buy it did you? <ROFL>

Enough of my rambling. I don't think we going to persuade each other, but I'm always happy to disagree - especially when the argument is as philosophical as this!
Cheers,
Paul


gliderpilotuk
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posted 10-16-2003 09:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gliderpilotuk   Click Here to Email gliderpilotuk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK my final word on this matter.
I was sat here thinking "why the hell am I having to justify something I DON'T do?!" If, as Chet opines, early close-outs are a perfectly justifiable action, anyone who has asked a seller to close early and sell to them should not have a problem revealing themselves.
So, I throw down the gauntlet and say: if YOU have ever asked a seller to cancel an auction, stand up and be counted. Let's hear what YOUR motivation is; what YOU think fellow collectors think of you; how you feel when someone does it to you; and what you think about infringing eBay's rules. I'm not talking about sniping here, JUST early close-outs and private deals off-ebay.
I can hear the silence already....
Paul


chet
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posted 10-16-2003 12:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

I can say that I have never asked a seller to sell to me off-line, and have never been approached by someone asking me to sell to them off-line; my involvement with this "issue" is strictly philosophical. But as you say, and I think it's an excellent point; if someone has engaged in it, why not come forward?
You are right that if someone feels they haven't done anything wrong they should have no problem admitting it (except for those who just happen to desire an extra degree of privacy anyway even though they feel they've done nothing wrong).

As you by now know, I have no particular problem with this practice. I've seen items I've wanted to bid on "disappear"; I don't linger on about what transpired behind the scenes, and I really don't care - - I just accept that the item is no longer available, and move on. My take is that if a person wants an item badly enough to contact a seller directly, and it is enough in that seller's interest to pull the item off Ebay, no terrible crime or ethical breach has been commited. (BTW, technically, this is NOT against Ebay rules - - their rules specifically prohibit a seller from using Ebay contacts to drum up off-line sales; there is NO specific prohibition on buyers soliciting items from sellers). If I see a "pulled" item being offered by a dealer later on, I don't begrudge the dealer - - who has, after all, assumed the risk and put up his money. From where do I derive the right to think that person is less "deserving" to have bought that item than I, because he might want to sell it, whereas I wanted it for more "sentimental" reasons? THAT is terrible presumptuousness, IMHO).

Yes, I would like to hear from others who've "done it", as you suggest Paul, but if we don't, I would also assume it's out of fear of being publicly excoriated, but that alone doesn't mean the practice is wrong. (I live in the Los Angeles area, and it's been a hot topic for awhile now how many conservatives in the entertainment business are afraid of admitting their political views for fear of being ostracized and/or persecuted by their liberal peers who far outnumber them in the industry. That doesn't mean these people who are afraid to "come out" necessarily have anything to be ashamed of; most would simply rather not deal with the grief).

-chet

Robert Pearlman
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posted 10-16-2003 12:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by chet:
(BTW, technically, this is NOT against Ebay rules - - their rules specifically prohibit a seller from using Ebay contacts to drum up off-line sales; there is NO specific prohibition on buyers soliciting items from sellers).

This is incorrect, and I quote:

"Members may not contact a seller and offer to purchase a listed item outside of eBay."

See their rules under "Transaction Interference".

Robert Pearlman
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posted 10-16-2003 01:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Incidentally, there is a recourse for those who feel that selling an item listed on eBay to an outside buyer is indeed "transaction interference" and wrong, even if you were never a bidder or planning bid on a particular auction.

Report the seller to eBay. When a sufficient number of instances by the same seller are noted on his/her account, eBay may suspend his/her account. I've seen it happen.

The same holds true for bidders. If you can prove* that someone is routinely buying pieces outside of the normal bidding, then report the buyer to eBay.

* An example of proof might be by showing the identical item for sale on another site.

chet
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posted 10-16-2003 01:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Robert, you are right. I had not seen that explicit prohibition before, and I stand corrected.

HOWEVER!!.....

I still maintain that those who gripe about the practice do so much more out of a sense of outrage over a feeling of personal deprivation than over any angst that a violating seller has been unfair to Ebay.
(I'm sincerely not applying this to you, Robert, as I believe you are arguing the ethical side of this based on Ebay's stated rules; others have made clear they take umbrage at the practice of off-Ebay selling in the same vein that they oppose sniping, even though that practice is perfectly acceptable to Ebay).

-chet

PRubin
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posted 10-18-2003 12:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PRubin   Click Here to Email PRubin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This thread was initiated by a member asking for an opinion on an uninscribed Armstrong litho.

During the same time period of this thread the following uninscribed Armstrong was being offered for sale on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2196341914&category=14438&rd=1

This auction was not ended early and was completed last night. It was curious to see that no one, to my knowledge, who commented on the early ending of the auction and who was interested in this item, bid on a comparable if not better quality item.

I am not endorsing spiking bids or the premature ending of auctions. I am actually of the opionion, that from a legal standpoint, the ending of an auction once a bid has been placed constitutes a breach of contract. I find it hypocritical that no one jumped on the opportunity to bid on this comparable item after they were disappointed that the auction was closed early.

What it comes down to plan and simple is that this item ended early because the bid was at $200. All interested parties were going to spike the bid at the end and hopefully get a good deal on this item. The Armstrong which ended last night was already bid up to $700-$900 by the time the first Armstrong photo was ended early.

All parties could have bid on the other Armstrong which concluded last night but the price was already bid up. Perhaps the Seller of the closed Armstrong would not have ended the auction if the price was not at $200 and all interested parties placed bids on the item over the course of the auction.

So maybe we are all to blame for the motivation of the seller in ending the auction early.

If we are having a hunt for culpable parties, all those interested in bidding but did not and who were going to spike bid at the end of the auction, come forward.

[This message has been edited by collectSPACE Admin (edited October 18, 2003).]

chet
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posted 10-18-2003 03:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Some excellent points.

Yes, it's against Ebay rules to end an auction, even one without bids, to sell to a soliciting buyer, and I understand why this would bother people as it gives someone willing to break rules an unfair advantage; I'm just at a loss to understand the degree of vitriol it arouses.

Aside from the very astute observation that those who complain loudest are very seldom active bidders, it's irritating to me how the worst possible motives are attributed to individuals who try to arrange early auction endings, without any thought, or care apparently, given to any possibly mitigating underlying reasons.

I doubt it has ever occured to those ready to join a lynch party that perhaps people try to arrange to buy "off-Ebay" because they'd like to purchase an item without their identities being known. Perhaps if Ebay gave bidders the option to bid anonymously, (just as they give sellers the option to hide the identities of bidders), we'd see less auctions for highly desirable items ending early.

-chet

Robert Pearlman
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Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 10-18-2003 04:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
eBay already allows for anonymous bidding, through the use of usernames.

Its no longer possible for anyone but the seller to request a bidder's identity.

So unless you go out of your way to choose a username that could be identified with you, then there is no means for the other bidders to know it is you who is bidding.

chet
Member

Posts: 1506
From: Beverly Hills, Calif.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 10-18-2003 05:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I disagree.

Many space collectors' Ebay usernames are already well known to a large number of people on this board, and other boards too.

If you think about it, I'd say a large degree (albeit probably not the majority) of the "back-stage" dealing that goes on occurs because of issues with anonymity, rather than trying to freezeout
competitors. Don't forget that someone who tries to buy something behind the scenes may end up overpaying as much as underpaying for an item by taking it off the auction block.

-chet

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 10-18-2003 05:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
First, they can start a new account. eBay permits you to have two at a time, and you can close an account as soon as its "exposed" and start again.

Second, you could always have someone else buy the item for you.

Third, if you are striving for anonymity you certainly are risking a lot by contacting the buyer directly as it could very easily result in that person outing you for trying to circumvent the system. Not a smart move if you are concerned about keeping your identity secret.

Finally, unless your offer to the seller is to "name his price and then I'll double it" than you are always looking for a better deal than an auction could possibly return. As in an auction, when you place your high bid, anyone can raise it if they desire it more. By circumventing eBay, you are removing the competition in hope of a better deal.

Bob M
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Posts: 1744
From: Atlanta-area, GA USA
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 10-18-2003 05:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob M   Click Here to Email Bob M     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If a bidder feels that his eBay User ID has become well-known & identifies him, all he has to do is get another & use it instead. It's well within eBay rules to have two (or maybe more) User IDs, just so you don't use both in the same auction.

At least two well-known space collectors have obtained second User IDs so they can bid more anonymously.

Bob Mc.

chet
Member

Posts: 1506
From: Beverly Hills, Calif.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 10-18-2003 07:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Getting a new username is a workaround, is a big hassle, and not nearly as good as being able to place bids anonymously. I think it would be better for Ebay to offer this option than to have people open multiple accounts if they want to bid anonymously, wouldn't you agree?

As for the argument that trying to buy "behind the scenes" never entails the risk of paying more for an item than letting an auction run its course, well, that is simply inaccurate.

Suppose a collector has been looking high and low for a Cliff Williams signed cover, and finally finds one on Ebay with a start price of $400.00. His budget for this item is $500.00. He contacts the seller and offers $500.00, and the seller agrees to end the auction. In this example, the buyer might've easily won the cover at $400.00 if he was the only bidder; he also might've lost out on the cover if bidding went over his limit. I'm not arguing the ethics of the buyer's tactics here, just disputing Robert's assertion that going the full auction route will always end up with the buyer paying more.

-chet


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