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Author Topic:   Petition: Shuttle Enterprise for Air Force Museum
Robert Pearlman
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Posts: 44653
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 10-07-2011 01:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Columbus Dispatch reports that Ohio businessman John Cavanaugh is using a newly created portion of the White House website to launch an online petition asking the administration to reconsider its position on the retired shuttles and send one to the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force in Dayton.
He needed 150 signatures to get his petition posted on the White House petitions site, called "We the People."

With that done, he needs 5,000 signatures by Oct. 30 to get the White House to consider his case...

Specifically, Cavanaugh wants the Dayton museum to get the Enterprise — a decommissioned space shuttle currently headed for New York City. He argues in his petition that New York is unprepared to house the shuttle.

Hart Sastrowardoyo
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Posts: 3448
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 10-07-2011 02:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hart Sastrowardoyo   Click Here to Email Hart Sastrowardoyo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Assuming this is successful, will this be it for Enterprise? Or will someone from Houston (or some other city) petition that they should get Enterprise, not Dayton? And on losing Enterprise, will someone from New York City then petition to get one of the flight orbiters?

An unanswerable question right now, but food for thought. At some point this has to end.

Spacepsycho
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Posts: 825
From: Huntington Beach, Calif.
Registered: Aug 2004

posted 10-07-2011 06:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spacepsycho   Click Here to Email Spacepsycho     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think it's insane that Johnson Space Center isn't getting a flown shuttle and that Intrepid was given anything from the shuttle program.

The flown shuttles should go to Kennedy Space Center, Johnson and a deserving museum in So. Calif. Enterprise should stay at the National Air and Space Museum.

I don't know who was on the committee to pick the facilities who are to display the shuttles, but something is seriously wrong here.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 44653
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 10-07-2011 09:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Spacepsycho:
I don't know who was on the committee...
The Recommendation Team, led by Olga Dominguez, NASA's Assistant Administrator for the Office of Strategic Infrastructure, changed members over time. For the bulk of the time however, the group was composed of:
  • Sue Kinney, Director of Logistics, Office of Strategic Infrastructure
  • Robert Sherouse, Transition Manager, Office of Strategic Infrastructure
  • Jonathan Krezel, Space Shuttle Office Transition and Retirement Lead, Space Operations Mission Directorate
  • Mark Batkin, Attorney Advisor, Office of the General Counsel
  • Courtney Graham, Associate General Counsel, Office of the General Counsel
  • Mike Curie, Public Affairs Specialist, Office of Communications
  • Rick Irving, Legislative Affairs Specialist, Office of Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs

p51
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Posts: 1681
From: Olympia, WA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted 10-07-2011 10:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hart Sastrowardoyo:
At some point this has to end.
Exactly. Ye Gods, there has to be a moment when someone is going to have to take all these people by the shoulder, stare deep in their baby blues and say, "Face facts, YOU'RE NOT GETTING A SPACE SHUTTLE. Accept that fact, and move on."

I know people at the Museum of Flight in Seattle and I swear what I hear out of some of them is downright silly. Some of what I've heard from one of them ranks right up with the plot to a Road Runner cartoon, plotting to get a shuttle no matter what.

Spacepsycho
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Posts: 825
From: Huntington Beach, Calif.
Registered: Aug 2004

posted 10-08-2011 04:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spacepsycho   Click Here to Email Spacepsycho     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
The Recommendation Team, led by Olga Dominguez, NASA's Assistant Administrator for the Office of Strategic Infrastructure, changed members over time.
Were any of the members of the selection committee asked how they arrived at the decision to select the facilities that were chosen? I don't think I've heard from one person who know anything about the space program who thinks that Intrepid deserves a shuttle or who isn't outraged that JSC won't be receiving one.
quote:
Originally posted by p51:
Exactly. Ye Gods, there has to be a moment when someone is going to have to take all these people by the shoulder, stare deep in their baby blues and say, "Face facts, YOU'RE NOT GETTING A SPACE SHUTTLE. Accept that fact, and move on."
While I appreciate your opinion that you want to shake people to get their attention, the fact remains that the selection of facilities who were chosen to display the various shuttles was and will always remain very poor. I agree that people have to move on, but this is a once in a lifetime chance to receive a flown shuttle for a museums collection and people who represent facilities that would make an outstanding choice are rightfully angry.

I agree you can't make everyone happy, but in this instance, the committee who selected the museums, really screwed up big time and it's not right.

ea757grrl
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Posts: 738
From: South Carolina
Registered: Jul 2006

posted 10-08-2011 06:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ea757grrl   Click Here to Email ea757grrl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by p51:
Exactly. Ye Gods, there has to be a moment when someone is going to have to take all these people by the shoulder, stare deep in their baby blues and say, "Face facts, YOU'RE NOT GETTING A SPACE SHUTTLE. Accept that fact, and move on."

While I'm not doing cartwheels about elements of the final disposition myself, I do know the committee was privy to a whole lot more information than I had...and they also knew no matter what they decided, a lot of people would be very unhappy. And unless and until something comes along that demonstrates something legally or ethically inappropriate went on, I believe the panel members realized the magnitude of their charge, looked at the data, and made the best decision they could. I am therefore unwilling to second-guess them at this point.

My own point of view? If any of the museums prove unable to maintain their Orbiter to an acceptable standard, *then* let's revisit it. But for now, I'm willing to give the selected museums a fair chance.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 44653
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 10-08-2011 09:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Spacepsycho:
Were any of the members of the selection committee asked how they arrived at the decision to select the facilities that were chosen?
The NASA Office of Inspector General reviewed the entire process and published a 26-page report.
quote:
I don't think I've heard from one person who know anything about the space program who thinks that Intrepid deserves a shuttle or who isn't outraged that JSC won't be receiving one.
I like to think I know something about the space program (maybe I'm wrong), but for whatever it's worth I believe New York is as an appropriate location for a space shuttle as anywhere else, and I am not outraged that Houston did not receive one. I know a good number of other people who feel the same, even former space shuttle program workers here in Houston...

Spacepsycho
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From: Huntington Beach, Calif.
Registered: Aug 2004

posted 10-10-2011 12:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spacepsycho   Click Here to Email Spacepsycho     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Regardless of what others think, my opinion is it's obscene that JSC, the same place that controlled every space shuttle mission, deserves a shuttle over an aircraft carrier that had absolutely no connection to that program.

manilajim
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Posts: 256
From: Bergenfield, NJ USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 10-10-2011 12:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for manilajim   Click Here to Email manilajim     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Regardless, it is the independently run museum at JSC, not JSC itself which tried to get the shuttle and they only wanted a flown in space shuttle. As has been discussed in earlier postings, they have been shown to have inferior displays for the space relics they do have already on display.

The Intrepid put in a better proposal and wasn't picky about what type of shuttle might be available. Anything negative posted about the decision is simply sour grapes.

JSC will get a full scale mockup which will certainly be a nice display. When the Enterprise is unveiled in its' new home in New York it will be fantastic.

kr4mula
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Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006

posted 10-11-2011 11:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kr4mula   Click Here to Email kr4mula     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Even though I've long advocated for Dayton's bid, even I'm to the point of "give it up already!" I appreciate what they're trying to do, but it's not going to happen.

That said, NY is still a questionable destination that was only selected because of inappropriately (in my opinion) weighted factors.

Another way to look at it is: would anyone in NY (or from the Intrepid) be upset - in the least - if it didn't get a shuttle? Or even notice that it hadn't? Or have had any really solid reasons justifying why it should have?

Hart Sastrowardoyo
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From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 10-11-2011 12:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hart Sastrowardoyo   Click Here to Email Hart Sastrowardoyo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kr4mula:
[b]...would anyone in NY (or from the Intrepid) be upset - in the least - if it didn't get a shuttle?
Well, yeah I'd be upset if it was taken away. Intrepid was awarded a shuttle by a selection committee, whose decision was reviewed.

Half seriously, if Intrepid were to lose a shuttle for reasons other than it was unable to maintain it, I'd start a petition to bring it back...

ea757grrl
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Posts: 738
From: South Carolina
Registered: Jul 2006

posted 10-11-2011 01:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ea757grrl   Click Here to Email ea757grrl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hart Sastrowardoyo:
Half seriously, if Intrepid were to lose a shuttle for reasons other than it was unable to maintain it, I'd start a petition to bring it back....

And therein lies the rub: Reverse a decision about the disposition of one Orbiter and you set a precedent for reversing the disposition of them all, and satisfying one previously-aggrieved constituency while enraging another. Then, what's to say that decision won't be reversed by someone else, and so on, and so on?

All the while, these museums have got to start spending some serious money to prepare for the Orbiters' arrival. Even if it's a museum that already has an existing facility that's large enough, it's not going to be as simple as just rolling the Orbiter in and putting chocks under the wheels. It's serious business involving serious money, and potentially affecting the future of the museum in question. What if they spend all this money to prepare for an Orbiter's arrival, only to be told, "Hey, we've reconsidered this, and..."? And how are they going to be able to raise money if there's doubt about if it's going to happen? The big donors who make things like this happen want to bet on sure things.

Speaking for myself, I'm not satisfied that the Intrepid museum is the place for Enterprise; personally, I wanted the Museum of Flight to get her. (Full disclosure: I'm a member of said museum.) But the Intrepid museum won out. The decision panel had a lot more information than I have, and as best I can tell from the OIG report, acted with integrity. It's not my choice of venues, but then again I fully acknowledge my perspective is that of an enthusiast.

In my mind, the proper thing for me to do is congratulate the Intrepid folks, wish them well, and give them a fair chance. If they can't make it happen, or if they can't maintain Enterprise properly, then it becomes appropriate to revisit it. But for now, I want to give them a chance to show why they earned it.

AJ
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Posts: 511
From: Plattsburgh, NY, United States
Registered: Feb 2009

posted 10-11-2011 02:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AJ   Click Here to Email AJ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's over and done with. Let it go.

I've been a lover of the space program since I was in elementary school and I grew up dreaming of flying in the damn thing. But at the end of the day, it's a space shuttle, not a family member so I don't see the point in getting so worked up about it. You don't like where they're going to end up? Then don't go to those places. It's simple.

p51
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From: Olympia, WA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted 10-11-2011 09:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I too question the sense in having two shuttles so close to each other (and yes, I know the area well and know that DC and NYC are not next door to each other, I've driven between them several times), but I don't question the matrix that NASA used when deciding who got them. In the end, it was a combination of the mission of the venue in question, the number of people who would visit these venues in any given year, and the ability to maintain the orbiters. I know nothing about the California museum but have been to the others named. It does make sense that they should go where they're best seen and have the best chance to be properly maintained. As much as I'd have loved seeing one come to Seattle (and make no mistake, the Museum of Flight REALLY was surprised they got turned down as they were already constructing the building to house it when the decision came out) as I live somewhat near the area, I know that far more people who care about the space program would go to the places designated to see them on display. It's really that simple.

Being from the South, I dislike the idea of a shuttle going to NYC more than anyone out of pure principal, but it does make sense considering how many people go to the Intrepid museum each year...

sfurtaw
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From: Saginaw, MI USA
Registered: Feb 2004

posted 10-12-2011 09:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sfurtaw   Click Here to Email sfurtaw     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My issue has not been one against the Intrepid museum, but in general with the placement of all the orbiters. According to Google Maps, Enterprise and Discovery will only be 254 miles apart, while none are located between the coasts. In my opinion it would have made more sense to place Enterprise in Dayton, Chicago or Houston.) Yes, being from Michigan, I am a bit biased toward Dayton or Chicago.)

Murph
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posted 10-12-2011 01:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Murph   Click Here to Email Murph     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It was my understanding that Dayton simply took themselves out of the running, by not being able to raise the money to accept delivery. Will this petition solve any financial issues? It seems a moot point. What's changed?

You make your proposal and the committee weighs it, along with other factors it assigns a value to. No specific place is "entitled" to a shuttle. Is Seattle, Dayton, etc. entitled to a shuttle? No more than New York is as far as I can see. Does sending a shuttle to Seattle help anyone in Kansas City see one? They sent them to tourist destinations, if you happen to live near one, that's to your benefit. If not, well, as we all know, life can be unfair. If somewhere else got Enterprise I would not have gotten angry over the decision. I fail to see why anyone would.

Bolden had the power, he made the decision. I could not see any way to undo it. The Enterprise was seen by some as the consolation prize. Space Center Houston wasn't interested in a non-flown shuttle before. It seems they jilted Enterprise, and are now repentant suitors. NASA already has a flown shuttle — at Kennedy Space Center. Were they going to keep two flown shuttles? No. Sending Explorer to JSC seems the least that could be done, but at least it is something, and I expect they will do a nice job displaying it. Are some at JSC disappointed that they are receiving a full size mock up? Are some in New York disappointed that they received a non flown shuttle, when they almost received a space flown shuttle? Of course, but that is the way things shook out.

Lawmakers say things for the cameras and constituents, same everywhere. They demand a shuttle. As a matter of pride, would the New York lawmakers bow out and hand the shuttle over to another museum? Would yours?

The Intrepid busted their butts to get a shuttle, every time I visited they handed out buttons and stickers, and leaflets, and had petitions to be signed, and had a high profile at all times about their desires. They were over the moon to get Enterprise. They earned it as far as I could see.

Why not be gracious, wish them good luck, and plan to see it for yourself? I would have done that for any museum which was lucky enough to get one.

Enterprise suddenly has many suitors, but she already has a date for the dance — Intrepid.

Robert Pearlman
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Posts: 44653
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 10-24-2011 06:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
John Cavanaugh's petition has reached (and surpassed) the 5,000 signatures needed by the end of this month* for it to be "reviewed by the White House, distributed to the appropriate policy officials within the Administration and receive an official response."

According to the "We The People" website, the White House's response will be posted and linked to the petition on WhiteHouse.gov (as well as emailed to all of the petition signers).

(* Since posting the petition, the rules for the "We The People" website have changed and all new petitions now require 15,000 signatures to be reviewed.)

Robert Pearlman
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posted 10-25-2011 11:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Cross Cultural Communications release
"We the People" petition signers urge White House to reopen NASA Shuttle decision, land Enterprise at the Birthplace of Aviation

Online signature campaign rockets past 5,000 needed by end of month deadline – taxpayers seeking fairness and accountability in new process

In less than a month's time, over 5,000 citizens and taxpayers signed an electronic petition posted on a White House website asking that the administration press NASA to reconsider its position on locations for the retired shuttles, specifically requesting the shuttle Enterprise be sent to Dayton for more appropriate display and better public access. The White House "We the People" petition site required a minimum of 5,000 signatures be logged online by an October 30th deadline in order for the issue to be considered by White House staff and, presumably, President Obama. As of 3:00 PM Eastern Time yesterday, October 24th, well over 5,000 had signed the petition and numbers continue to grow as the petition remains active until Sunday's deadline.

NASA officials announced in April that the Enterprise would go to an east coast museum, geographically not that far from the shuttle Discovery, going to the Smithsonian near Washington, D.C., The petition promotes that the Enterprise should instead be displayed at the world renowned National Museum of the United States Air Force in Dayton, Ohio, which includes the adjacent National Aviation Hall of Fame Learning Center. Public admission and parking is free, and over 1.3 million people from around world visit the dual facilities annually. Dayton's proximity the crossroads of o two of America's busiest interstate highways, I-70 and I-75, and its Midwest location being within driving distance of 60% of the nation's population are among many significant attributes supporters claim were overlooked if not dismissed by NASA in the original decision making process.

This is in stark contrast to NASA's selection for the Enterprise location, the Intrepid Sea, Air and Space Museum, which is not only in New York City, but currently charges admission of $24 per adult, and $12 or $19 per child, depending on age. Then, in late September, a news investigation found the Intrepid Museum had not been forthcoming to NASA about its plans for a retired shuttle, revealing an inability to display the Enterprise in a suitable and timely manner, contrary to its original filing application.

This latest revelation came on the heels of a report in August by NASA's inspector general that uncovered scoring errors in NASA's ranking of suitable finalists. Dayton should have tied New York and likely would have won out on several counts, not the least of which is that the Intrepid's lone connection to the manned space program is that the retired Navy carrier once was used to recover Apollo astronauts after splashdown.

Conversely, Dayton, known worldwide as 'The Birthplace of Aviation', is home to the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, where aeronautical research has been conducted continuously for nearly a century, and where the museum and the Hall of Fame are co-located near Huffman Prairie, where Orville and Wilbur Wright perfected powered and controlled flight in 1905, and now a national park. Additionally, Ohio is home to NASA's Glenn Research Center and can claim over a dozen pioneering astronauts such as John Glenn, Jim Lovell and Neil Armstrong, as native sons.

The National Aviation Hall of Fame (NAHF) is among several key supporters of the "We the People" Shuttle petition effort, which was started by Columbus businessman John Cavanaugh. "We applaud Mr. Cavanaugh's initiative in founding this petition and bringing the opportunity to our attention," said NAHF Enshrinement Director Ron Kaplan, who was the sixth person to sign it. "We were as mystified as the rest of the taxpayers when NASA announced its locations for shuttle placements last April. Now that our voices are heard through this White House site and elsewhere, we look to the administration and our federal legislators to ensure the oversight, transparency and accountability for placing the Shuttles that was clearly lacking throughout NASA's original process, during and after."

Kaplan credited many besides the membership of the Hall of Fame with pushing the petition effort over the top so rapidly. Ohio Senator Sherrod Brown, an early, outspoken critic of NASA's flawed process and decision, was particularly supportive of the petition effort. Cavanaugh pointed out that the cause and petition was ideally suited to go viral. In addition to supporters leveraging social media such as Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, where Kaplan first became aware of Cavanaugh's effort, to promote the cause, he named other organizations that effectively called their stakeholders to action, such as the State of Ohio Division of Tourism, southwest Ohio-area convention bureaus, and several bloggers.

A surge in signatures occurred last week after the publisher of a prominent regional weekly, the Dayton City Paper, donated a full-page ad to promote the petition on the back cover of its annual election special issue. A Dayton-based creative group contributed the ad design, its headline proclaiming, "It may not take a rocket scientist to help NASA understand that the Enterprise Shuttle should land in Dayton... but it might take your signature."

"The overwhelming support of our fellow taxpayers speaks volumes to our elected leaders as to the importance of this matter," claims Kaplan. "This isn't only about America's heartland being dismissed by NASA, nor the fact that their decision unfairly undermines untold opportunities in job creation, education and development. It's about pulling back the mystifying cloak of bureaucracy, arrogance and indifference through this process, and ensure for U.S. taxpayers that NASA finally opts not for what may seem easy, but for what is right. And Ohio is without a doubt the right choice for the Shuttle Enterprise's public display."

JSC01
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Posts: 85
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Registered: Nov 2011

posted 11-09-2011 09:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for JSC01     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by manilajim:
As has been discussed in earlier postings, they have been shown to have inferior displays for the space relics they do have already on display.
Forgive me I'm new, and have not read all the threads you reference... but in my opinion JSC/SCH displays are very nice. Gemini and Apollo vehicles have a fine display in the SCH bldg. Yes, the Saturn V was neglected, but now it's housed in a very attractive facility for tourist viewing.

I do agree that Explorer is probably the best fit for Houston though... but for different reasons. Mainly the number of visitors per year. The flight vehicles should be where the most folks would see them.

Explorer is a very educational upgrade for SCH, which I'm sure most at JSC will appreciate once she's here. Look forward to seeing the barge carrying Explorer steam across Clear Lake.

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