posted 11-23-2013 06:09 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Kite:
Possibly THE person most responsible for getting to the Moon.

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posted 11-23-2013 07:00 PM               

I certainly don't wish to deride the significance of what was truly a national tragedy, but it seems to me that there is a general consensus today among historians that Lyndon Johnson drove the space program to the Moon out of both a sense of responsibility to the legacy of his predecessor...and if you're more cynical, as a distraction from Vietnam. I *think* it was Tom Wolfe quoting LBJ: "Thank God I've still got my astronauts."

There's a not-inconsequential school of thought among historians who believe that if JFK had lived and been re-elected, he would have pulled the plug on Apollo himself.

posted 11-23-2013 10:59 PM               

Here's a hypothetical scenario...

Kennedy is not assassinated. He realizes the mistakes of our involvement in Vietnam and pulls us out of there. Happy days are here again... the public embraces Apollo and the "race to the moon" (he did after-all make a great speech!). We beat the Soviets to the moon anyways.

posted 11-24-2013 12:17 AM               

I believe I picked this up about 10 years ago from the daughter of a longtime KSC Public Affairs employee. The image was scanned from a damaged 4x5 color negative, and was cleaned up to what you see now. This and other negatives and transparencies had been out in a backyard shed for who knows how many years.

posted 11-24-2013 02:14 AM               

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Originally posted by GoesTo11:
...it seems to me that there is a general consensus today among historians that Lyndon Johnson drove the space program to the Moon

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Initially, Kennedy's election did not auger well for NASA and its burgeoning manned space efforts. A committee under Jerome Wiesner issued a report that included the words "We should stop advertising Mercury as our major objective in space activities. Indeed, we should make an effort to diminish the significance of this programme."

Since Kennedy then made Wiesner his Special Assistant, morale amongst those keen to go to the Moon sank almost out of sight. This, in a perverse way, saved Apollo.

The Administrator of NASA is a political appointment. With the Wiesner Report hanging over its head, no scientist wanted the job. More by luck than judgement, eventually the choice fell, not on a scientist, but on an extremely capable politician-manager called James E. Webb. It is said that he was more than a match for Johnson when it came to deviousness, just the quality required in the current climate.

The second stroke of fortune was that the new Vice President opposed the Kennedy plan to disband the National Aeronautics and Space Council. In doing so, Johnson became its Chairman, and NASA gained an enthusiastic ally in Washington, for Johnson was deeply fascinated by space flight and wasn't about to let a little matter like the Wiesner Report stop him.

Johnson and Webb were both keen advocates of an extended manned involvement in space and both had the political know how of how to achieve their goals.

posted 11-24-2013 03:09 AM            

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Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
I would agree, but only so much in the role he played in spirit, posthumously.

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posted 11-24-2013 01:23 PM               

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Originally posted by heng44:
Yes, J.L. is correct. He sent it to me many years ago and I restored it to look like new. J.L. is a master at finding treasures like this...

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posted 11-24-2013 06:03 PM            

Only that summer they had launched the joint flight of Vostok 5 and Vostok 6, the latter mission carrying the first woman into space. The Soviets had more powerful rockets, they had missions that lasted longer and time and time again they pulled off space spectaculars.

Apart from their lead in space, the Soviet hardware was not compatible with the US hardware. Cooperation would also mean that their failures and relatively simplistic spacecraft would be exposed.

America started the moon race to beat the Soviets. The question is, did the Soviets try to get to the moon because the US had forced them into the race? Or did they try to get to the moon because thats what they wanted to do, no matter what the US did?

posted 11-24-2013 07:09 PM               

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Originally posted by robsouth:
The Soviets didn't take up this offer and why should they, they were ahead in the space race.

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As is now documented, Soviet military leaders initially feared that entering into a partnership with the U.S. would expose the weak state of their ICBM inventory, putting the USSR at a disadvantage in the Cold War.

But that concern aside, Khrushchev came close to accepting Kennedy's proposal for the very same reason that Kennedy put it forth: sharing the tremendous expense of the endeavor. According to his son, Khrushchev spoke openly about entering into a partnership with the U.S. for the purpose of a joint lunar mission. He said in October 1963:

We consider, with due attention to the proposal of the U.S. President, that it would be useful if the USSR and US pooled their efforts in exploring space for scientific purposes, specifically for arranging a joint flight to the moon. Would it not be fine if a Soviet man and an American or Soviet cosmonaut and an American woman flew to the moon? Of course it would.

posted 11-25-2013 02:21 AM               

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Originally posted by robsouth:
America started the moon race to beat the Soviets.

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First, one needs to understand the economic background to the 1960 presidential election. The US economy turned sharply downward in the summer of 1957 and reached its low point in the spring of 1958. Industrial production fell 14 percent, corporate profits plummeted 25 percent and unemployment rose to 7.5 percent. President Eisenhower did little to stimulate the economy because he worried more about inflation and not unemployment. Subsequently, in 1959 the economy realized a $12 billion deficit, a new record for a budget shortfall during peacetime.

As the 1960 presidential election campaign got under way, the 1960-1961 recession began. John F Kennedy’s 1960 campaign promise "to get America moving again" referred to the American economy. He wanted economic growth at an annual rate of 4-6 percent and unemployment at 4 percent. Kennedy knew that the economy was in big trouble so he sent congress an economic growth and recovery package consisting of twelve measures. They were an increase in the minimum wage from $1.00 to $1.25 per hour and an extension of the minimum wage to a larger pool of workers, an increase in unemployment compensation plus increased aid to children of unemployed workers, increase social security benefits to a larger pool of people, emergency relief for feed grain farmers, area redevelopment, vocational training for displaced workers, and federal funding for home building and slum eradication.

Kennedy hinted that economic reasons played a large part in the decision to go to the Moon in his May '61 announcement when he said, "It means a degree of dedication, organisation and discipline which has not always characterised... our efforts. It means we cannot afford undue work stoppages, inflated costs of materials or talent, wasteful inter-agency rivalries, or a high turnover of key personnel. (Everyone must give)... his personal pledge that this nation will move forward with full speed of freedom in the exciting adventure of space.

One should not forget that over 90% of the money spent on Apollo stayed on the ground, in universities, in research facilities and, most importantly, in the pockets of thousands of workers. From these pockets the money filtered down into the wider economy of the nation.

Kennedy faced a Congress that needed persuading to spend the money necessary to achieve his aims. What better way than to harness the fears generated by the Soviets and their space exploits and a unique set of circumstances that made it possible to sell the idea of a Moon landing as the means of realising his dreams for America?

posted 11-25-2013 05:25 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by robsouth:
If economics and not beating the Soviets was a major factor in going to the moon, why did the program get cut just after Apollo 11 and then ended altogether just a couple of years later?

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posted 11-25-2013 11:38 AM               

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Originally posted by moorouge:
I remain unconvinced that this was either the sole or main reason for Apollo. It is simplistic and totally ignores the problems facing the new President in 1960.

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...the fact that the Soviet Union has made this a test of the system. So that's why we're doing it.

...we ought to be clear, otherwise we shouldn't be spending this kind of money because I'm not that interested in space...

posted 11-25-2013 01:27 PM               

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Originally posted by moorouge:
Kennedy had to be aware that 'private' conversations were recorded and the contents likely to be made public.

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posted 11-26-2013 02:01 AM               

The Kennedy Library summary of this meeting says this about the exchanges -

At the meeting, the President and his staff were discussing a supplemental budget for NASA and the effect the increased money would have on expediting the scheduled orbital flights and the Apollo Space Program. There is a disagreement among the staff over whether or not the increased budget will change the target dates for the Apollo Program, including the lunar landing scheduled for 1967.

James Webb, Administrator of NASA, and Robert Seamans, Deputy Administrator for NASA, explain to the President that they do not believe that the timetable for Apollo can be expedited. NASA’s Apollo Space Program sought to develop man’s capability to work in the lunar environment, to carry out a program of scientific exploration of the moon, and to establish the technology to meet other national interests in space.

In the course of the discussion, an animated exchange between the President and Webb took place over the priority of the lunar landing program. Webb, in a spirited and fearless exchange with President Kennedy, argued that the lunar program was “one” of the top priority programs of NASA. The President wanted it made clear that it was “the” priority program — not only for NASA but for the entire government — with the desired result being that the United States would beat the Russians to the moon.