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Author
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Topic: Lunar Landing Training Vehicle (LLTV) pilots
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ambrous
Member Posts: 13
From: indianapolis, in
Registered: Feb 2008
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posted 08-27-2012 01:57 PM
  
Is there a list somewhere of which astronauts (or non-astronauts) flew the Lunar Landing Training Vehicle (LLTV) or Lunar Landing Research Vehicle (LLRV)? Was it just the landing commanders and backups or did others fly as well?I would assume Neil Armstrong, Pete Conrad, Jim Lovell, Alan Shepard, David Scott, John Young, Gene Cernan, Dick Gordon, Fred Haise. |
Beau08
Member Posts: 159
From: Peoria, AZ United States
Registered: Aug 2011
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posted 08-27-2012 02:12 PM
Here is a NASA litho (MSCL-93) that states on the back that these are the astronauts that used the LLTV. (Thanks benfairfax for photo.)  |
ambrous
Member Posts: 13
From: indianapolis, in
Registered: Feb 2008
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posted 08-27-2012 02:46 PM
Thanks for the nice image. I had a bit of trouble reading the signatures, but I did not see Armstrong, Conrad or Lovell on it. Perhaps the names are those who flew the LLTV and not the LLRV or just this particular LLTV? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 52021
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-27-2012 03:19 PM
The astronauts who signed the litho are: - Neil Armstrong
- Eugene Cernan
- Charles Conrad
- Richard Gordon
- Fred Haise
- James Lovell
- David Scott
- Alan Shepard
- John Young
The pilots are: - Joe Algranti
- Jere Cobb
- Stuart Present
- Bud Ream
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MSS
Member Posts: 1043
From: Europe
Registered: May 2003
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posted 08-27-2012 03:40 PM
Just read at Wikipedia: Lunar Landing Research Vehicle and this link also. |
micropooz
Member Posts: 1759
From: Washington, DC, USA
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 08-27-2012 06:54 PM
More than you can imagine about the LLRV and LLTV. Includes mostly complete logs of LLRV 1 and 2 flights, and summary totals (no detailed logs though) of astronaut training flights. Good stuff! |
Henry Heatherbank
Member Posts: 322
From: Adelaide, South Australia
Registered: Apr 2005
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posted 08-28-2012 06:36 AM
Given that Young, Gordon and Cernan flew it, I guess it is safe to assume it was in use until some time in 1971? I am assuming Young first flew it as Apollo 13 backup CDR in 1969/70, Cernan as Apollo 14 backup CDR in 1970 and Gordon as Apollo 15 backup CDR in 1970/71.Did Young or Cernan then fly it into 1972 as prime crew CDRs in training for Apollo 16 and 17, respectively (or for that matter, did Gordon fly it whilst still in the running as candidate for Apollo 17 CDR once Apollo 18 had been axed?). Prior to this topic, I had assumed it was no longer used after 1969, once Apollo 11 and 12 were out of the way, because of safety concerns, and that NASA considered it an unnecessary risk. |
heng44
Member Posts: 3727
From: Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 08-28-2012 06:55 AM
Scott, Young and Cernan flew it as CDR about one month prior to their respective launches. I have photos of all three in the cockpit. The backup CDRs also flew it in that timeframe. The tethered LLRF at Langley was discontinued in 1970, but the LLTV flew until November 1972. I believe Armstrong and Conrad stressed that the LLTV simulated the LM landing very accurately. |
ambrous
Member Posts: 13
From: indianapolis, in
Registered: Feb 2008
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posted 10-19-2012 08:35 PM
I was watching the video "The Space Duet of Gumdrop and Spider." It appears to have footage of Jim McDivitt flying the LLTV at 5:54. I am not sure why this would be needed for flying the LM in Earth orbit. Although with the editing, he may be on some other device and not the LLTV. But, why would this NASA film even have footage of the LLTV in flight if it was not used for the flight? |
randy
Member Posts: 2622
From: West Jordan, Utah USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 10-19-2012 09:53 PM
In the book "Unconventional, Contrary and Ugly: The Lunar Landing Research Vehicle", the following pilots are also mentioned:Joseph A. Walker, NASA FRC; Donald L. Mallick, NASA FRC and Emil "Jack" Kluever, Army Pilot assigned to NASA FRC. |
heng44
Member Posts: 3727
From: Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 10-20-2012 02:16 AM
quote:
Originally posted by ambrous:
It appears to have footage of Jim McDivitt flying the LLTV at 5:54.
I asked McDivitt about that for an article I wrote on the LLTV many years ago. He said he and Schweickart only flew the tethered LLRF at Langley, not the LLRV/LLTV.The footage of McDivitt in the film suggests he flew the LLTV, but it is actually of the parachute training that you see right after this segment. Astronauts are pushed off a wooden tower in a sort of ejection seat. The cutaway shot of a group of astronauts looking up was also filmed during this parachute training. Mixing it with actual footage of the LLTV is confusing, to say the least. |
Jay Chladek
Member Posts: 2272
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 10-20-2012 07:15 AM
I seem to recall that Bill Anders also flew it, but I don't know if his flights were related to the original high orbit LM test intended for Borman's crew, or if he was part of the astronaut crew that would evaluate the LLTV for a practical use as a landing simulation. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3906
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 02-21-2024 08:39 PM
From NASA SP-2004-4535: (James) Lovell, backup commander on Apollo 11, had no LLRV or LLTV training at all before Apollo 11 launched due to the crashes of LLRV No. 1 and LLTV No. 1. But it looks like Lovell actually did, based on this 2019 NASA article: Armstrong completed his training in mid-June with eight flights in LLTV-2, the only vehicle available at the time, at Ellington Air Force Base near the Manned Spacecraft Center (MSC), now the Johnson Space Center in Houston. Backup Commander Lovell flew his first flight on June 30, with additional training missions in early July.  |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3906
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 02-22-2024 09:12 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jay Chladek:
I seem to recall that Bill Anders also flew it...
Also from NASA SP-2004-4535, on page 195: With the exception of Anders and Borman - who made LLRV flights before mission assignments were firm - only prime and backup LM commanders flew the LLRVs or LLTVs. |
David C
Member Posts: 1429
From: Lausanne
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 02-23-2024 02:56 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LM-12:
From NASA SP-2004-4535: (James) Lovell, backup commander on Apollo 11, had no LLRV or LLTV training at all before Apollo 11 launched due to the crashes of LLRV No. 1 and LLTV No. 1. But it looks like Lovell actually did, based on this 2019 NASA article: Armstrong completed his training in mid-June with eight flights in LLTV-2, the only vehicle available at the time, at Ellington Air Force Base near the Manned Spacecraft Center (MSC), now the Johnson Space Center in Houston. Backup Commander Lovell flew his first flight on June 30, with additional training missions in early July.
Well that’s an interesting change of story. Has anyone asked Lovell? |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3906
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 02-23-2024 06:54 AM
Armstrong and Conrad flew the earlier LLRV. A 1972 article in MSC Roundup says that Frank Borman, William Anders, Edwin Aldrin and C. C. Williams also flew the LLRV. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3906
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 02-23-2024 03:16 PM
The National Archives has Lovell as the pilot of LLTV Flight 951-035-135F dated July 2, 1969. The film is not online. |
heng44
Member Posts: 3727
From: Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 02-24-2024 05:13 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LM-12:
A 1972 article in MSC Roundup says that Frank Borman, William Anders, Edwin Aldrin and C. C. Williams also flew the LLRV.
I believe Borman, Anders, Aldrin and Williams 'flew' the LLRV trainer, not the actual vehicle. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3906
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-05-2024 01:07 PM
The Apollo 11 crew training summary shows "LLTV - Lovell - one flight" on June 30, 1969 and "LLTV - Lovell" on July 1, 1969. |
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