Author
|
Topic: Astronauts flying time at selection
|
Marc05A Member Posts: 39 From: Reims, France Registered: May 2009
|
posted 03-07-2018 08:09 AM
Does anybody have a log of the flying time of NASA astronauts from groups 1 to 3 at the time of their selection? I think that some of them had barely the required amount of flight hours when they applied (maybe Gene Cernan and Walt Cunningham)? |
Buel Member Posts: 649 From: UK Registered: Mar 2012
|
posted 03-07-2018 10:18 AM
I think Rusty Schweickart covers this in his oral history where he describes how technically he hadn't got enough hours when he applied. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3208 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
|
posted 03-07-2018 10:37 AM
These are the numbers I found. The first number is the total hours flying time, and the number in brackets is the jet time. The Group 1 info is from the 1959 press release. I found the Group 2 and Group 3 info in MSC Roundup newsletter issues. - Carpenter - 2800+ hours (300)
- Cooper - 2300 hours (1400)
- Glenn - 5000+ hours (1500)
- Grissom - 3000+ hours (2000+)
- Schirra - 3000 hours (1700)
- Shepard - 3600 hours (1700)
- Slayton - 3400 hours (2000)
- Armstrong - 2400 hours (900)
- Borman - 3600 hours (3000)
- Conrad - 2800+ hours (1500)
- Lovell - 2300+ hours (1600)
- McDivitt - 2500+ hours (2000)
- See - 3200+ hours (2300)
- Stafford - 3500 hours (2500)
- White - 2900 hours (1700)
- Young - 2300 hours (1600)
- Aldrin - 2500+ hours (2200+)
- Anders - 1800+ hours (almost 1600)
- Bassett - almost 2800 hours (almost 2100)
- Bean - 2000+ hours (about 1800)
- Cernan - 1400+ hours (1200+)
- Chaffee - nearly 1700 hours (1400+)
- Collins - 3000+ hours (2700+)
- Cunningham - almost 2000 hours (1350+)
- Eisele - 2500+ hours (2100+)
- Freeman - 3000+ hours (2000+)
- Gordon - nearly 2800 hours (almost 2000)
- Schweickart - 1250+ hours (almost 1100)
- Scott - 2300+ hours (nearly 2100)
- Williams - 1800+ hours (1300+)
|
David C Member Posts: 1015 From: Lausanne Registered: Apr 2012
|
posted 03-07-2018 09:37 PM
Interesting seeing the numbers listed out like that, especially Cernan's considering his Bell 47 "flight discipline" mishap. |
Blackarrow Member Posts: 3120 From: Belfast, United Kingdom Registered: Feb 2002
|
posted 03-08-2018 02:56 PM
Any figures for Group 5? |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3208 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
|
posted 03-08-2018 03:28 PM
The numbers given for the Group 5 astronauts when they were announced:
- Brand - 2174 hours (1721)
- Bull - 1634 hours (1424)
- Carr - 1903 hours (1368)
- Duke - 1736 hours (1472)
- Engle - 3867 hours (2573)
- Evans - 2372 hours (2084)
- Givens - 3353 hours (2628)
- Haise - 4760 hours (2096)
- Irwin - 5468 hours (3780)
- Lind - 1361 hours (1044)
- Lousma - 1258 hours (1077)
- Mattingly - 2582 hours (1036)
- McCandless - 1435 hours (1339)
- Mitchell - 2795 hours (704)
- Pogue - 3344 hours (2509)
- Roosa - 2758 hours (2406)
- Swigert - 4469 hours (3503)
- Weitz - 2510 hours (2207)
- Worden - 1900 hours (1308)
|
onesmallstep Member Posts: 1310 From: Staten Island, New York USA Registered: Nov 2007
|
posted 03-08-2018 05:27 PM
Gen. Engle's name should include an asterisk with number of minutes flown in space per his astroflights in the X-15, although technically NASA considered him a spaceflight "rookie." |
Skylon Member Posts: 274 From: Registered: Sep 2010
|
posted 03-09-2018 07:05 AM
That's an interesting point about Engle, because I was wondering about Armstrong (especially since I was surprised he had such little time in jets)- how would the X-15 flights be counted? They aren't jets, they are rocket powered - a whole other class. Since X-15 flights were measured in minutes, I also would be surprised if any X-15 pilot racked up more than an hour or two in terms of powered flight. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3208 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
|
posted 03-09-2018 09:59 AM
Average flying times, from the Group 5 NASA news release: - 1959 Group 1 - 3500 hours
- 1962 Group 2 - 2800 hours
- 1963 Group 3 - 2315 hours
- 1966 Group 5 - 2714 hours
|
David C Member Posts: 1015 From: Lausanne Registered: Apr 2012
|
posted 03-09-2018 04:59 PM
quote: Originally posted by Skylon: ...how would the X-15 flights be counted? They aren't jets, they are rocket powered - a whole other class.
I don't think any counting method by NASA's PR department or rookie comments really mattered. There were only two X-15 pilots in the astronaut office and everyone who was relevant to selections (so not the PR department) knew exactly where that put you on the flight test totem pole. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3208 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
|
posted 03-09-2018 09:04 PM
The Apollo 17 press kit mentions that LMP Jack Schmitt had logged more than 1665 hours flying time. |
star61 Member Posts: 294 From: Bristol UK Registered: Jan 2005
|
posted 03-10-2018 03:28 PM
That number of 900 hours jet time for Armstrong doesn't seem right. By the time he qualified in jets with the Navy and had a combat tour with 70+ missions, he must have had 300/400 hours surely? As a NACA test pilot flying chase and various tests himself, I would assume more than 600/700 hours in 9 years (including his Uni time). Could it be 1900 hours? Does 1500 hours in non-jet seem reasonable? Not to me. Haven't got "First Man" to hand to check if it's mentioned. |
AlanC Member Posts: 147 From: Scotland Registered: Nov 2014
|
posted 03-10-2018 06:23 PM
According to "First Man", the numbers correspond with LM-12s post (Chapter 16, page 210). |
David C Member Posts: 1015 From: Lausanne Registered: Apr 2012
|
posted 03-10-2018 07:52 PM
quote: Originally posted by star61: Does 1500 hours in non-jet seem reasonable? Not to me.
Groups 1, 2 and 3 straddle a unique period in aviation history. Prop, transition, and jet. Armstrong was very much a transition guy. He started in props. Flew jets in combat. Back to his favourite machine in the reserves — the F8F, a prop, then NACA. The quoted numbers are both reasonable and accurate.Thing is people look at these hours and value jet time over prop time. Sure, during the transition jet time was important because they were different. Not harder, just different. If you can get past that it's not so much what you're flying, but what you're doing in that time airborne. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3208 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
|
posted 03-11-2018 11:00 AM
Armstrong had amassed 1900 hours in jets by the time of his first space flight. From the Gemini 8 press kit: He has logged more than 3,400 hours flying time, including 1,900 hours in jet aircraft. |
David C Member Posts: 1015 From: Lausanne Registered: Apr 2012
|
posted 03-11-2018 01:40 PM
Well that seems to confirm the math. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3208 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
|
posted 03-12-2018 06:36 AM
A few of the Apollo press kit crew biographies mention helicopter time: - Apollo 11
Aldrin - 139 hours - Apollo 15
Scott - 188 hours Worden - 107 hours Irwin - 387 hours Gordon - 121 hours Brand - 326 hours Schmitt - 177 hours
|
star61 Member Posts: 294 From: Bristol UK Registered: Jan 2005
|
posted 03-13-2018 05:47 PM
I certainly wasn't valuing jet time over props. It just seemed even considering that period being a transition era, 900 hours over 10+ years of combat and flight test seemed low.I assume maybe NACA test pilots just got fewer opportunities for hour building that service personnel. |
Skylon Member Posts: 274 From: Registered: Sep 2010
|
posted 03-14-2018 07:14 AM
quote: Originally posted by LM-12: Armstrong had amassed 1900 hours in jets by the time of his first space flight.
It sounds like Armstrong really started sopping up T-38 time once he was in the Astronaut Office.I really find these numbers interesting in the context of the reputations of these guys. Carpenter's lack of time in jets does seem glaring on paper. Glenn's 5000 hours flying, with a little more than a fourth of that in jets is a good reminder of his WW2 service — and age. Others seem to contrast with those reputations — Elliot See — whose flying skills have been questioned in the historical narrative of space flight had more flight hours logged than all but two members of his astronaut group when he was selected. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3208 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
|
posted 03-14-2018 07:28 AM
The numbers for Jim Irwin are impressive in all three categories. |
David C Member Posts: 1015 From: Lausanne Registered: Apr 2012
|
posted 03-14-2018 11:58 AM
quote: Originally posted by star61: ...900 hours over 10+ years of combat and flight test seemed low.
Yeah, but there was about three years between his leaving VF-51 and joining the NACA High Speed Flight Station. I think most of his flying then was probably on the F8F.And yes, I reckon NACA pilots didn't get that much opportunity to just go bore holes in the sky. I remember Milt Thompson writing about scrambling to build his cross country time. |
David C Member Posts: 1015 From: Lausanne Registered: Apr 2012
|
posted 03-14-2018 12:02 PM
quote: Originally posted by Skylon: It sounds like Armstrong really started sopping up T-38 time once he was in the Astronaut Office.
It wasn't just Armstrong, I think they were all busy flying round the country.See looks like a case of the old story that hours in a log book by themselves don't tell you very much. |
David C Member Posts: 1015 From: Lausanne Registered: Apr 2012
|
posted 03-14-2018 12:06 PM
quote: Originally posted by LM-12: The numbers for Jim Irwin are impressive in all three categories.
Irwin was such a nice low profile kind of guy that I think people forget just how experienced he was. Don't forget he was a YF-12A test pilot (which was probably the next best thing to the X-15, but he never said much about it). Also he joined "late" having missed out on selection because of his T-6 mishap (if I recall correctly, long time since I read "To Rule The Night"). |
JohnPaul56 Member Posts: 180 From: Montclair, NJ, USA Registered: Apr 2010
|
posted 03-16-2018 05:17 PM
Didn't know that Jim Irwin tested the YF-12A. Any photos of him in the aircraft?
|
oly Member Posts: 905 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2015
|
posted 03-16-2018 08:35 PM
quote: Originally posted by David C: ...looks like a case of the old story that hours in a log book by themselves don't tell you very much.
When you consider the era in aviation that is being considered here and the type of aircraft being flown, 100 hours flight time needs to be put into perspective. Take an X-15 test flight as an example. The time doing pre-flight activities, being strapped into the seat and sealed inside, and riding the B-52 wing up to altitude, this time is not logged. Only the drop, powered flight and glide time. I am not sure of the average X-15 flight duration. Many aircraft being test flown by test pilots, or early jet aircraft, or high powered prop aircraft, were flown for relatively short durations. It would take more flights to clock 100 flight hours while doing 30 minute sorties than it would doing 5 hour cross country flights but your log book still shows 100 flight hours. It's the type of flying they accrue in that 100 hours that is important. |
Jurg Bolli Member Posts: 977 From: Albuquerque, NM Registered: Nov 2000
|
posted 03-16-2018 11:19 PM
The longest flight was #51 by Armstrong who overshot during reentry, it lasted 12 min 28.7 sec. The others were around 7-11 minutes. |
David C Member Posts: 1015 From: Lausanne Registered: Apr 2012
|
posted 03-17-2018 03:25 AM
quote: Originally posted by JohnPaul56: Didn't know that Jim Irwin tested the YF-12A. Any photos of him in the aircraft?
Never seen any, but you'd think there would be some.
|
LM-12 Member Posts: 3208 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
|
posted 04-22-2018 12:58 AM
I found a few numbers for the MOL astronauts re-assigned as NASA Group 7 astronauts in a 1969 MSC news release announcing the change (some of the total flying hours weren't mentioned in the release): - Bobko - ? hours (2100+)
- Crippen - 2000+ hours (1800)
- Fullerton - ? hours (4000+)
- Hartsfield - 2700+ hours (2300)
- Overmyer - 2500+ hours (2000)
- Peterson - 2770+ hours (2400+)
- Truly - ? hours (2500+)
MOL astronaut Lt. Col. Albert H. Crews, USAF was re-assigned to non-astronaut duty in the NASA-MSC Flight Crew Operations Directorate. He had "over 5000 flying hours." |