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Author
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Topic: Astronaut training jets before the T-38
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DavidH
Member Posts: 1259
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted 04-12-2004 12:59 PM
   
I'm having trouble finding the answer to this question: Before the T-38, what kind of jets did NASA provide for the astronaut corps? |
albatron
Member Posts: 2804
From: Stuart, Florida
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 04-12-2004 01:56 PM
The Convair F-102. |
pokey
Member Posts: 361
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 04-12-2004 02:37 PM
F-102, isn't that also the one that Bush flew in the Texas Air Guard? |
STEVE SMITH
unregistered
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posted 04-12-2004 02:53 PM
I had the good fortune to be chatting with Captain Dick Gordon relative to his appearance at the Cosmosphere, and asked him the question.He stated that they had the T-33, the F-102 (single place) and TF-102 (dual place). They were all retired in favor of the T-38. He like everyone else seemed to like the T-38 for fun. |
KC Stoever
Member Posts: 1020
From: Denver, CO USA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-13-2004 11:50 AM
The other posters neglected to mention the F-106 -- you can see Carpenter climbing into one in a stock NASA photo (used in his memoirs) from 1961 or 1962. You could fly one from the Convair factory (is this right? Convair?) to Langley, and it came with a cool pin that said you had flown a supersonic airplane. Deke Slayton arranged for the F-106s to be available. And also a simulator. But at first the Mercury astronauts kept up their proficiency and their hours with the workhorse F-102, which Carpenter describes as "heavy." And, yes, the Delta Dagger was flown by the Air National Guard at the end of its useful life in the fleet--in the late 1960s. Some fuss was made in the press about Bush flying this "difficult" airplane -- evidence of his ostensible flying skills. Some even said the F-102 was nicknamed the Widowmaker. Untrue. The F-104 earned this moniker among West German pilots in the mid-1960s, after a string of fatal crashes mostly traceable to pilot training and the weather. |
pokey
Member Posts: 361
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 04-13-2004 12:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by KC Stoever:
The F-104 earned this moniker among West German pilots in the mid-1960s, after a string of fatal crashes mostly traceable to pilot training and the weather.
Per someone that test piloted this plane, he said the West German pilots weren't briefed properly on how to fly it in all conditions. [Or something to that effect, it's been over a decade since I heard the quote from the person he told. The man refused to take credit for anything out of the ordinary on test piloting that plane. Just part of his job. Test pilots- what an extraordinary group of people.] |
KC Stoever
Member Posts: 1020
From: Denver, CO USA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-13-2004 02:16 PM
Hank Hancock was the first Navy pilot to test the F-104, in about 1954. He was at Patuxent at the time, and the Air Force made him come to Edwards to fly it. |
albatron
Member Posts: 2804
From: Stuart, Florida
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 04-13-2004 04:47 PM
The F-106 did come along later after the astronauts complained about the F-102 and TF-102. Kris, I believe the pin you are referring to is a Mach 2 pin? Most pilots that flew the 106 flew it after it was already ferried to their commands. As far as the F-104 being called the widow maker, in conversations with a Lockheed test pilot who went to Germany TDY to train them in the F-104, he tells me there were many factors that attributed to their high accident rate, not the least was continued proficiency. Funding as in everything else. He also related they were some of the finest pilots he ever encountered, and the aircraft they got were top notch. It was, however, a really difficult aircraft to transition to due to its characteristics and high speeds. As far as the F-102 and F-106 being difficult aircraft to fly, any delta wing has characteristics unique to that type of configuration and they were not easy aircraft to fly. Remember this was the first production delta wing aircraft (the XF-92 was a test bed). Take an F-102 and put it next to an F-86 or FJ and its light years apart. |
KC Stoever
Member Posts: 1020
From: Denver, CO USA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-13-2004 06:57 PM
Yeah, it was a Mach 2 pin, and it came with the F-106. Carpenter says my account is wrong about how F-106s came to Langley. Slayton didn't arrange this, Langley A.F.B., home to a Tactical Air Commnand squadron, did. In 1959, Langley A.F.B. pilots flew F-102s, and when the Mercury astronauts arrived, then that's what they flew too. Langley needed the latest airplanes, and in the early 1960s, so the supersonic F-106s arrived. So that is what the Mercury astronauts flew too. They flew what the squadron flew. Regarding the F-104, sounds right to me, Al. Carpenter would add, "We don't MAKE airplanes that are difficult to fly. With some you simply have to pay more attention." His only remark about the F-102 was that is a "heavy" plane. The F-106 was completely different, he added, recalling with pleasure when asked "where" he flew it: "straight up!" was his reply. |
Steve Procter
Member Posts: 1031
From: Leeds, Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 04-14-2004 04:49 AM
One of the more interesting items in my collection is a page from the USAF logbook form 781A (Maintenance Discrepancy/Work Record) for F-106A serial No. 56-458 operated out of Langley AFB by the 48th FIS.One entry dated 15 March 62 in the pilots handwriting is 'HSI distance readout shutter will not retract - TSDI bug tracks OK' and signed 'W M Schirra Jr CDR USN' The second half of that entry is the work carried out to remedy the fault and is signed by the technician. |
sts205cdr
Member Posts: 720
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Jun 2001
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posted 04-15-2004 06:07 PM
I've heard that, while extremely nimble, the T-38 is somewhat unstable at low speeds (such as when landing). I suppose that's due to the short stubby wings...Interestingly, the cosmonauts use a sub-sonic Czech trainer for proficiency, the L39 "Albatros." |
767FO
Member Posts: 269
From: Boca Raton, FL
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 04-15-2004 07:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by sts205cdr:
I've heard that, while extremely nimble, the T-38 is somewhat unstable at low speeds (such as when landing).
Having flown the T-38 for four years, I can say without hesitation that is the most fun plane I've ever flown. It had it's quirks, but then what airplane doesn't. It could be very unforgiving, but also challenged you on every flight. As far as pattern speeds go, it flew pretty fast. The basic speeds for the final turn, final and touchdown were 175, 155 and 130 knots plus one knot for every hundred pounds of fuel above 1,000 pounds on board, so you can see if you had a lot of gas, you were really "flying". |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3413
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 04-20-2004 05:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by albatron:
As far as the F-102 and F-106 being difficult aircraft to fly, any delta wing has characteristics unique to that type of configuration and they were not easy aircraft to fly. Remember this was the first production delta wing aircraft (the XF-92 was a test bed).
For completion, the UK's Gloster Javelin in 1951 was actually the world's first production delta fighter - although I suspect no astronaut ever got to fly one! Don't you miss the sight of those deltas in the sky? |
John Charles
Member Posts: 342
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 06-12-2004 10:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Procter:
One entry dated 15 March 62 in the pilots handwriting is 'HSI distance readout shutter will not retract - TSDI bug tracks OK' and signed 'W M Schirra Jr CDR USN'
Coincidentally, that was the same date that Schirra learned that Slayton was grounded, and that Carpenter, not he, would replace him. Interesting coincidence. |
Rusty B
Member Posts: 239
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 02-02-2011 11:33 PM
The astronauts also flew T-33s. Alan Shepard and Gus Grissom were flying a T-33 in September 1961 when they had an engine failure (Astronauts In Close Call, Sep 5, 1961). In August 1969, astronaut Joseph Kerwin made a belly landing on a foamed runway due to a landing gear problem in T-33. (Astronaut has close call, Aug 17, 1969). Before being chosen as astronauts (in the late 1950's), Gus Grissom and Gordon Cooper were taking off in a T-33 near Denver when they aborted the takeoff. The plane crashed and burned but they escaped unhurt. |
onesmallstep
Member Posts: 1353
From: Staten Island, New York USA
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 02-03-2011 05:04 PM
qoute from gliderpilotuk: 'Don't you miss the sight of those deltas in the sky?'Actually, you're lucky in the UK: you have the honor of having Avro Vulcan XH558 take to the sky during airshow season. A beautiful delta airplane if ever there was one.. |
Philip
Member Posts: 6160
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 08-10-2022 06:52 AM
Although there's a 1963 photo showing Walter Schirra next to a T-38 (S63-18249), it looks like NASA received five Northrop T-38 Talon twin jet trainers on loan from the USAF in August 1964. Already in 1960, the "Mercury 7" astronauts requested jet aircraft for training and to keep their flight pay. Although Lockheed T-33, Convair F-102 Delta Dagger and F-106 Delta Dart became available, NASA looked for trainer jets for "exclusive use" by astronauts. This way they could avoid travel on commercial airlines when working between NASA centers, AFB and subcontractors sites. Any idea when the first Northrop T-38 Talon flew in NASA livery colors (e.g. for the NAA X-15 in NASA colors the first flight date was 25 March 1960)? |
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