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  Colleen Shipman on '20/20' with Bill Oefelein

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Author Topic:   Colleen Shipman on '20/20' with Bill Oefelein
mjanovec
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posted 02-19-2011 07:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In case people here didn't notice, the ABC news program 20/20 did a story about the Lisa Nowak incident on Friday night... though the main focus was on Colleen Shipman's side of the story. Former astronauts Bill Oefelein and Susan Still (Kilrain) were interviewed for the story.

If you missed seeing the story, it is currently available for viewing on the 20/20 website. I thought the 20/20 piece was fairly interesting, even if aspects of the story are somewhat sensational.

Delta7
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posted 02-19-2011 08:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Delta7   Click Here to Email Delta7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Saw it. A few interesting facts I didn't know. Oefelein didn't say much, refusing to answer questions about Lisa Nowak or even the subject of "astronauts as heroes", preferring sticking to questions about Colleen, how they met and their relationship. He told Chris Cuomo that he "was here to support Colleen." and later "Are there any more questions for me?" like he was looking for the exit.

issman1
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posted 02-19-2011 08:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for issman1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well they say that real life is stranger than fiction, and nothing could be more surreal than the Nowak saga.

It just makes me wince whenever I watch this clip of the STS-121 launch. That's Nowak as MS2/FE seated over Mark Kelly's shoulder.

ejectr
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posted 02-19-2011 09:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ejectr   Click Here to Email ejectr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wince....there was nothing wrong with that woman then and there's nothing wrong with her now. Looks to me like she was doing her job precisely the whole way to orbit. Reading the manuals and recording the data.

She had a time in her life where bad judgement ruled her thoughts. Can happen to any of us and probably has to some extent.

brianjbradley
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posted 02-19-2011 10:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for brianjbradley   Click Here to Email brianjbradley     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think Bill Oefelein's lack of anything to say speaks volumes.

Spacepsycho
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posted 02-19-2011 11:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spacepsycho   Click Here to Email Spacepsycho     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by issman1:
It just makes me wince...
I think you're letting your imagination get the better of you. Did you honestly fear that Nowak would pull out a knife and hack away at the crew in flight?

I feel bad for this woman who invested a large part of her life to become an astronaut, then threw it all away, along with her family and USN career in a jealous rage. She's obviously an intelligent woman who's achieved what few others in this life have accomplished.

issman1
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posted 02-19-2011 12:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for issman1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Spacepsycho:
I think you're letting your imagination get the better of you...
Yes, I wince at how a NASA astronaut seemingly in control in the video clip allowed herself to fall spectacularly from grace a mere six months later.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 02-19-2011 01:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have removed several replies from this thread. It does not serve any good purpose to speculate, regardless of which party you are defending. If they so choose -- as Colleen Shipman did -- they can speak out and defend themselves.

brianjbradley
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posted 02-19-2011 02:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for brianjbradley   Click Here to Email brianjbradley     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I imagine Lisa Nowak has been absent from the media (in terms of providing an interview) because of the uncertainty about the U.S. Navy's punishment for her actions.

The Navy administrative panel's recommendation to separate her with a lower rank and dishonorable discharge was made to the Department of the Navy last August. How long does this process typically take for the Secretary to make a final decision?

dabolton
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posted 02-19-2011 10:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dabolton     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What ultimately was the reason for removing Oefelein from NASA? It would seem he kind of got the shaft on this. Was it the fraternizing issue?

Delta7
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posted 02-20-2011 07:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Delta7   Click Here to Email Delta7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My guess is they just didn't want the negative publicity that would automatically have followed him wherever he went. I could just see him at a press conference leading up to his second mission (as CDR of STS-119?) dodging question after question about the incident. Not to mention the late night talk show hosts bringing it up night after night. NASA Astronaut Commandment #1 is "Thou shall not embarrass or create negative publicity for the agency." Officially, they simply informed the Navy that his services to NASA would no longer be required.

Michael Davis
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posted 02-20-2011 08:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael Davis   Click Here to Email Michael Davis     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The one issue from this whole sorry mess that I find of interest is what if any practical changes NASA made to its astronaut selection process as a result. I’m no psychologist, but I would guess that given the extreme nature of the incident, NASA probably feared that they had surely missed warning signs of stress on the part of Nowak earlier. The changes in the sources for the astronaut candidates and the mixed sex nature of flight crews probably generate a different set of issues to solve in terms of policy and scrutiny than were true in the all male military test pilot days. I’m curious as to just what practical effects this entire incident had on crew selection, training, and ongoing psychological evaluations. I noticed that the interview never touched on the subject. It is probably a difficult point of discussion.

brianjbradley
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posted 02-20-2011 08:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for brianjbradley   Click Here to Email brianjbradley     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Davis:
The one issue from this whole sorry mess that I find of interest is what if any practical changes NASA made to its astronaut selection process as a result.
The plan for NASA should not be in the astronaut selection process. Lisa Nowak was an astronaut for almost 11 years before this incident and presumably without fault. NASA, even the military, would better serve their time addressing how they take care of their people under their service.

Look at the circumstances in Nowak's life before this incident:

  • Getting to go to space was the culmination of her life's work and her national transportation system to get there was starting to slow down
  • She just completed a flight (maybe her last?) and probably had the "Postflight Blues" - my career went so high, now what? (See Mike Mullane's book)
  • She was just denied a second flight on STS-120
  • She was balancing a xx/hr work schedule with the duties of a wife, homeowner, mother
  • That work schedule included more travel (The 121 crew had just been to the UK)
  • Her husband had recently been deployed to the Middle East, leaving her to balance that career, her home and kids (two under 4)
  • Then her companion/close friend/support system (I get the sense Oefelein was one of few) ended their relationship.
The question shouldn't be - how did she get to be an astronaut and how can we prevent people like her from being one? The better questions are - Was her employer (NASA/Navy) monitoring her health and how were they taking care of her under all of those circumstances? The better review is how do we manage and support astronauts psychologically in the future.

Tom
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posted 02-20-2011 09:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom   Click Here to Email Tom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by brianjbradley:
She was just denied a second flight on STS-120
Can you please explain? I thought flights were assigned... not requested.

brianjbradley
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posted 02-20-2011 11:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for brianjbradley   Click Here to Email brianjbradley     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In December 2006, a crew member needed to be replaced on the STS-120 crew due to a temporary medical condition. Lisa Nowak was told she had been considered for that flight; however, Stephanie Wilson was chosen ahead of her.

Tom
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posted 02-20-2011 11:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom   Click Here to Email Tom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the explanation, Brian.

issman1
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posted 02-20-2011 12:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for issman1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by brianjbradley:
Lisa Nowak was told she had been considered for that flight.
This USA Today report backs up what you say. But what I found more surprising was how an astronaut conducts him/herself before their peers affects their career.

hlbjr
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posted 02-20-2011 03:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for hlbjr   Click Here to Email hlbjr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I specifically recall reading an article in which Mark Kelly said he thought Lisa Nowak was a less than ideal crewmate on STS-121. I forget the term he used but the gist of it was he felt she was not a helpful crewmate because she was slow to offer to pitch in on whatever tasks needed doing and didn't seem to volunteer to do more that was her specific responsibility. Unfortunately I cannot recall where I read this.

brianjbradley
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posted 02-20-2011 03:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for brianjbradley   Click Here to Email brianjbradley     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Those statements from Mark Kelly were quoted multiple times from an interview he gave to a NASA office investigating the incident.

I had interviewed a few military officers and asked about conduct, and the justification I got from them was - a military officer obeys, and you don't touch or mess with a piece of equipment if you are not properly trained on it. That is protocol. I may also do the same if I was on the shuttle. The old astronaut prayer - "God help you if you screw up" - why attempt a task if you are not trained to do it properly in that kind of environment or situation?

mjanovec
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posted 02-20-2011 09:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by brianjbradley:
The question shouldn't be - how did she get to be an astronaut and how can we prevent people like her from being one? The better questions are - Was her employer (NASA/Navy) monitoring her health and how were they taking care of her under all of those circumstances? The better review is how do we manage and support astronauts psychologically in the future.

Your posting is right on the money, Brian. Presumably she was a well adjusted and balanced person when she was selected as an astronaut. (Therefore there may have been nothing to find at fault when she was selected.) Something led to her emotional breakdown in those six months (or more) leading up to the crime.

One thing the 20/20 report also mentioned was that the loss of Laurel Clark, one of her best friends in the astronaut office, also had a deep impact on Nowak. She felt added responsibility to fill the role of the mother to Clark's children. It's not an excuse for what she did, but another piece of the puzzle that could help explain her eventual breakdown.

Reading Mike Mullane's book, you get a sense that most astronauts are/were extremely reluctant to visit a psychologist. They either feared they will be labeled as weak individuals or they feared it will ultimately hurt their careers. While Mullane was speaking of the environment within NASA during the late 80s, I have to believe much of those same fears still exist today. When you bring together a group of highly successful and competitive individuals, nobody wants to do anything that will make them appear weak.

Michael Davis
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posted 02-21-2011 10:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael Davis   Click Here to Email Michael Davis     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by brianjbradley:
The plan for NASA should not be in the astronaut selection process. Lisa Nowak was an astronaut for almost 11 years before this incident and presumably without fault. NASA, even the military, would better serve their time addressing how they take care of their people under their service.
I find the position that the astronaut candidate selection process circa 1996 deserves no scrutiny to be odd. It may well be the case that it worked perfectly, but why would NASA, or anyone else, go straight to that conclusion? Would it not be prudent to at least perform a review of the process and criteria used at that time?

The stresses outlined above for Nowak seem no more severe, and perhaps even less so, than those faced historically. The death of close friends and colleagues? In a short period of time there was the loss of Bassett, See, Freeman, Grissom, White, and Chaffee. The denial of another mission? That was faced by Schweikart, Cunningham, and Cooper. Troubled marriages? Take your pick, but Eisele comes to mind. Long absences from home? Well my, just look at the post flight PR tours faced by the Apollo crews in the 1960’s. Not to mention their training schedule which could go on for weeks or months in places all over the country.

Intense scrutiny by the press? Look no further that the pressure from the media and public that the Original Seven were under. Post flight let down? I immediately think of Buzz Aldrin. A very long time between selection and getting a mission? Musgrave and Lind waited longer.

But yet, not even a speeding ticket came out of all of that. Granted Gene Cernan came close to getting one the night before the Apollo 10 launch, but he talked his way out of it.

dabolton
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posted 02-21-2011 10:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dabolton     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As people age, statically speaking a certain number will develop personality disorders; being an Astronaut doesnt exclude you from that. A person under multiple pressures who also becomes scorned in a relationship. Thats a recipe for losing it.

mjanovec
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posted 02-21-2011 05:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Davis:
Post flight let down? I immediately think of Buzz Aldrin.

You don't think Buzz's alcoholism and depression weren't that severe? I would argue that he faced a crisis in his life as severe as Nowak did. Granted, he didn't attack someone (other than a well deserved punch thrown at Bart Siebrel several years later). But his life still spiraled out of control for a while...and he could have easily made a bad decision during that time that could have ruined his life. Luckily, he didn't.

Again, it's not an excuse for what Nowak did, but she faced a post-flight letdown, a failing marriage, a death of a friend, the pressures of an intense career, the challenges of motherhood, and the rejection of her lover (and best friend within NASA) all within a short span of time. While you can point to other astronauts suffering similar difficulties in their lives, how many suffered them all nearly simultaneously?

Michael Davis
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posted 02-22-2011 08:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael Davis   Click Here to Email Michael Davis     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
You don't think Buzz's alcoholism and depression weren't that severe? I would argue that he faced a crisis in his life as severe as Nowak did.
I'm not quite sure where you saw even a hint of disrespect for Buzz Aldrin, or anyone else including Lisa Nowak in my post, but for the record - I have tremendous respect for Colonel Aldrin. His struggles with alcohol and depression were of course severe and I am grateful that he shared them with us. His candor took an exceptional amount of courage and it has helped a tremendous number of people who face their own demons. That courage made him even more of a national hero in my mind.

But my only point in all of this remains: Given an extreme aberration in conduct and behavior which defies any precedent set over nearly fifty years of accumulated experience, shouldn't every potential aspect of the entire process leading up to that aberration be scrutinized and reviewed? Given that the initial astronaut candidate selection process is the beginning of that process, it would seem like a natural item to be included in any review.

brianjbradley
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posted 02-22-2011 08:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for brianjbradley   Click Here to Email brianjbradley     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I stand my ground that the selection process is irrelevant and that Lisa Nowak had 11 good years as an astronaut and further, was always capable and deserving of holding her position of being an astronaut.

Read any astronaut account of their career and you will find an essence that therapy (for stress, pressure, grief) was a taboo subject in the Astronaut Office. From a statistics perspective, yes, all astronauts endure pressure but with the growing size of the astronaut office, sooner or later someone was going to crack under that pressure.

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