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  Ed White, Deke Slayton and Gemini command (Page 1)

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Author Topic:   Ed White, Deke Slayton and Gemini command
spacegrl13
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posted 12-28-2004 07:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spacegrl13   Click Here to Email spacegrl13     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was wondering if anyone knows why Ed White never got to command his own Gemini mission, since John Young, Jim Lovell, Tom Stafford, and Pete Conrad all got to be commander after having previously being pilot.

randy
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posted 12-28-2004 08:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for randy   Click Here to Email randy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I had heard it was because he was chosen for the Apollo 1 crew, and was in training for that. I could be wrong, however.

Tom
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posted 12-28-2004 10:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom   Click Here to Email Tom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
White was named commander (for the back-up crew) on Gemini 7 along with Mike Collins. Then, for some reason, only Deke Slayton knows for sure, White went on to Apollo and John Young took over as commander on Gemini 10.

spaceman1953
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posted 01-03-2005 08:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceman1953   Click Here to Email spaceman1953     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Could this be another part of the "hero" thing? NASA not wanting to lose one of its' heroes, like John Glenn only getting one flight?

ColinBurgess
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posted 01-03-2005 09:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ColinBurgess   Click Here to Email ColinBurgess     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The story about John Glenn being held back by Kennedy is a falsehood created in the media, so please put no credence in this. The fact is that Glenn was training and jockeying for a Gemini mission, even though Bob Gilruth had him out doing the NASA publicity thing, which was really annoying to Glenn. However he was sticking it out, even though he was making noises about leaving the USMC and NASA to pursue private interests.

It was the death of Kennedy, more than anything, that spurred Glenn on to doing something he was going to do much later on — go into politics. With Kennedy's assassination, he saw it as his patriotic duty.

Similarly, there was no administrative or governmental protection for Ed White. After GT-4 White was placed on the backup crew for GT-10 together with Mike Collins, but in the early stages of that mission he told Mike Collins that he had decided he would probably move over to the Apollo program, which came as no surprise to Collins (and I quote):

By early 1966, I figured Gemini 10 was mine but now Ed White told me it wasn't going to be his, that he had the word from Deke Slayton that he was moving on to Apollo. He was ambivalent about it, wanting to fly another Gemini mission but also wanting to get in on the ground floor of Apollo [N.B. Recall that this is exactly what Gus Grissom did after GT-3]. Personally, I thought that Apollo made more sense for him at the time, and I thought that he might very well end up first on the moon, as he had a lot of things going for him. He had projected exactly the right image as the nation's first spacewalker, and why not do the same as the first moonwalker?

John Charles
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posted 01-06-2005 07:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for John Charles     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good info, but White and Collins were the backup crew for Gemini 7, which could have been expected to rotate to Gemini 10, so White's comment in early 1966 seems to have come after their Gemini 7 commitments were completed.

carmelo
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posted 01-10-2005 08:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for carmelo   Click Here to Email carmelo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
He had projected exactly the right image as the nation's first spacewalker, and why not do the same as the first moonwalker?
In the book "Apollo: Lost and Forgotten Missions," I have read that Deke Slayton had decided to move White and Chaffee at Apollo Application Program missions. No moon landing was in program for Ed White.

ColinBurgess
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posted 01-10-2005 10:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ColinBurgess   Click Here to Email ColinBurgess     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by John Charles:
...so White's comment in early 1966 seems to have come after their Gemini 7 commitments were completed.
Yes, I accidentally skipped a backup assignment in my earlier response. White and Collins were indeed backups for GT-7 and this would have rotated them onto GT-10, so your time frame is correct.

I've also heard that White may have been passed over to the AAP without going to the moon, but it's not something I've looked into at depth, as these are usually just rumours that cannot be verified.

As an example, after a couple of years of trying, and consulting just about every astronaut, astronaut family member and spaceflight expert under the sun, as well as having people look through all the official documents from that time, I still cannot prove conclusively whether it was White or Chaffee who replaced the injured Eisele on the Apollo 1 crew. And believe me, I've tried and tried and tried.

Tom
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posted 01-11-2005 04:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom   Click Here to Email Tom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Colin, the original Apollo 1 crew was Grissom Eisele and Chaffee. Eisele injured his shoulder(?) and was replaced by White. Eisele moved back to the Schirra crew, then called Apollo 2.

ColinBurgess
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posted 01-11-2005 04:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ColinBurgess   Click Here to Email ColinBurgess     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Do you have any positive documentation to support this?

I know an archivist at the University of Houston has literally scoured the records over quite a few days recently and unsuccessfully trying to find anything on this for me, and even Michael Cassutt says that the information he was given for the book "Deke" (in which it was said to have been White) was incorrect. He now says it was Chaffee that replaced Eisele, as does, in personal response to my question, Wally Schirra, Walt Cunningham and Tom Stafford - the three living guys who were closest to knowing. Walt Cunningham is quite adamant, saying that Eisele told him he had been replaced on Apollo 1 by Roger Chaffee, and it was a conversation he clearly remembered.

Several historians, including some on this forum, feel that it was most probably Chaffee that replaced Eisele. Martha Chaffee told me she does not know for sure, but she thinks that Roger may have been on the original crew. Ed White III of course is not responding to any questions. I know there is an argument for Senior Pilot replacing Senior Pilot, but on Apollo 1 it wasn't really that important.

I find it amazing that either White or Chaffee was not originally on this ill-fated crew, and yet trying to get a definitive answer on which one it was has proved all but impossible to pin down, which I find remarkable. In the aftermath of the fire, logic would assume that an article would have been published, saying "My husband was not supposed to be on that flight." But if there was, I sure can't find it.

Certainly, if you have any absolute evidence, I know I'd be very grateful after spending the last few years trying to find some.

carmelo
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posted 01-11-2005 07:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for carmelo   Click Here to Email carmelo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tom:
Eisele injured his shoulder(?) and was replaced by White.
In the book "Apollo Lost and Forgotten Missions," page 116:
...in December 1965 Eisele dislocated his left shoulder during weightless training onboard a NASA KC-135 aircraft, and aggraved the injury further by playng handball, forcing his removal from flight. Slayton merely swapped Eisele with White from the planned Apollo 2 crew, allowing him time to heal from corrective surgery.

Tom
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posted 01-11-2005 09:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom   Click Here to Email Tom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ColinBurgess:
Do you have any positive documentation to support this?
I'd have to say the best piece of evidence that we have is that a senior pilot's duties differ from those of pilot on the Apollo Block 1 missions. It wouldn't make much sense to replace a senior pilot with a pilot, and "re-train" him for his new position.

WAWalsh
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posted 01-12-2005 12:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for WAWalsh   Click Here to Email WAWalsh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The twist on the post gets to a point that I have wondered about. In "Deke," Slayton wrote that for the first mission:
...the crew didn't need a whole lot of experience and it would be a good place to try out some of the guys who, frankly, I thought were weaker. My original rotation had Donn Eisele and Roger Chaffee as the senior pilot and pilot wroking for Gus.
Regardless of whom replaced Eisele after his injury, what — if anything — does this comment say about Slayton opinion of Ed White. Was this opinion hinted at a few pages earlier in the book where Deke states that he thought Ed White was setting himself to be another astronaut-politician with his comments during GT-4's EVA?

It has struck me that Deke had Ed White low on the peer ranking and, accordingly, this might answer the original question as to why Ed did not have the chance to command a Gemini mission.

ColinBurgess
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posted 01-12-2005 02:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ColinBurgess   Click Here to Email ColinBurgess     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
These are questions and doubts I've also been dealing with for quite some time. But let me reiterate that the information in "Deke" on the make-up of the original crew is probably not correct, according to the co-author.

Michael Cassutt told me that towards the end of Deke's life he often gave a lot of information that was confused and incorrect, and he knows through Tom Stafford and others that this particular crewing is most likely wrong. Michael agrees with me that the body of evidence suggests Chaffee replaced Eisele, and this is reinforced in Michael's later book, "We Have Capture."

As for "Apollo: The Lost Missions," I know Dave Shayler quite well and have asked him, but he simply extracted that information from "Deke," believing it to be correct. Unfortunately this succeeded in perpetuating what is probably false information.

I'm certainly quite willing and happy to know the truth either way, but several people including myself have been beating our brains out for years, looking for any kind of memo or documentation that would prove conclusively who was on that original Apollo 1 crew. I can only say again that several of the surviving astronauts most closely associated with that crew, and that period, have all told me directly and unanimously that Chaffee replaced Eisele.

As for the 1963 Gemini peer ratings, I have a copy right here in front of me, but I will preface the following fact by saying that (a) I am not at liberty to reveal the full sequence of the 13 names on there, and (b) although these are believed to be genuine astronaut peer ratings, they may have also resulted in an amount of input from elsewhere. That said, of the 13 astronaut names on the Gemini peer rating, Ed White is ranked No.13.

Tom
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posted 01-12-2005 05:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom   Click Here to Email Tom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As far as Ed White rated no. 13, there may be something to that.

According to David Shayler's book, "Apollo The Lost and Forgotten Missions," Deke Slayton didn't have any further Apollo plans for White (as well as Chaffee, Cunningham, Eisele and Schweickart). They were supposedly moving on to Apollo Applications aka Skylab.

Tom
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posted 12-03-2006 10:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom   Click Here to Email Tom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am still a little confused regarding the direction of Ed White's career at NASA.

Having been a member of the second group of astronauts, he was selected to a prime crew (GT-4) without serving on a back-up crew first. As far as I know, his EVA and performance on that flight were very successful.

He later was assigned as back-up commmander for Gemini 7, putting him in line to command GT-10. Did something happen in that mission flow that caused Slayton to re-assign White as pilot on Apollo 1?

Then in Slayton's book, there are indications that White would have been assigned to an AAP (Skylab) mission following Apollo 1, and not a future lunar (landing) mission. I always thought that following his EVA on Gemini 4, he would be a prime candidate for (if not the first) an early lunar landing assignment.

Duke Of URL
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posted 12-03-2006 03:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Duke Of URL   Click Here to Email Duke Of URL     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think I read (in Betty Grissom's book maybe?) that Gus Grissom was somewhat unhappy because both White and Chaffee seemed more focused on investments than training. This is from memory, though, and I won't say it as fact.

My further understanding is that, at the time (1966), AAP wasn't considered a dead-end. I believe it was an ambitious follow-up to the landings that envisioned several more Skylabs and long-duration lunar missions. Was a lunar orbiting Skylab planned? Maybe someone could tell us.

carmelo
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posted 12-04-2006 09:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for carmelo   Click Here to Email carmelo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You are right. Were many AAP missions in LEO (with lunar module-derived laboratory, wet workshop and dry workshop), start in 1969. But moon missions (Apollo and lunar AAP) were the "major league" and AAP was for "weaker" guys.

Michael Cassutt
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posted 12-04-2006 10:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael Cassutt   Click Here to Email Michael Cassutt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What happened to White's career — which on the surface seemed quite promising — can never really be known, since the two men closest to it are gone.

All I know for sure is that at some point in 1965 (or by 1965) Slayton lost faith in White as a commander or CMP for an Apollo lunar mission. It might have been a decision building for some time. Deke never ranked White as highly as he did Borman, McDivitt and a couple of others from the 1962 group.

I don't claim it was fair, or not. All I know is what I've stated here.

kr4mula
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posted 12-05-2006 10:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kr4mula   Click Here to Email kr4mula     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Did it perhaps have anything to do with the "communication difficulties" during White's EVA? Perhaps the popular perception that he was deliberately ignoring orders to end his EVA soured him with Deke?

Michael Cassutt
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posted 12-05-2006 11:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael Cassutt   Click Here to Email Michael Cassutt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Doubtful. Deke was quite understanding when it came to technical problems — and there were undeniable comm issues on the EVA. White was named GT-7 backup commander after GT-4, too, and while that may have been a holding job, I don't believe the EVA itself was the cause of White's difficulties with Deke.

carmelo
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posted 12-05-2006 11:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for carmelo   Click Here to Email carmelo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Maybe the interest of White in a future political career? Or a weak training in GT-7 back crew?

mjanovec
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posted 12-05-2006 12:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I thought it was White's somewhat squeaky clean image (like John Glenn) that made it difficult for some other astronauts to accept him. I'm not sure if this would have mattered much with Deke or not. I doubt it endeared him to Shepard, however.

carmelo
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posted 12-05-2006 12:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for carmelo   Click Here to Email carmelo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is probable. They did not want another John Glenn.

Michael Cassutt
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posted 12-05-2006 02:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael Cassutt   Click Here to Email Michael Cassutt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why would White's "squeaky clean image" have hurt his astronaut career? Frank Borman was considered just as straight an arrow, and it didn't hurt him.

His problems almost certainly had to have related to how he did his job, whether he failed to track some area in a technical assignment, or had training problems. Extraneous matters like political ambitions could have irritated Slayton or Shepard, but they wouldn't have had a major effect on White's suitablity for flight.

nelyubov
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posted 12-05-2006 02:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nelyubov   Click Here to Email nelyubov     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Gemini 4 communications problem was not an issue, as White could not hear ground communications anyway — only McDivitt. So if anyone was ignoring the calls from Grissom to "get back in," it was McDivitt.

I agree with the "image" issue. White was the second coming of Glenn and most of the other astronauts just couldn't stomach that.

I myself doubt that White was a "weak" astronaut. He had all the right stuff, no pun intended. I have a funny feeling that both Grissom and Slayton, who were really tight as friends, just didn't take to White. Personality clashes did exist, although most astronauts wish not to discuss them. Especially when it comes to deceased astronauts.

Tom
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posted 12-05-2006 03:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom   Click Here to Email Tom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nelyubov:
...just didn't take to White.
That's strange. Doesn't the commander have input as to who is named to his (or her) crew? If so, why would Grissom choose White for Apollo 1?

carmelo
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posted 12-05-2006 06:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for carmelo   Click Here to Email carmelo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Cassutt:
His problems almost certainly had to have related to how he did his job...
Yes, it must have been this. Which assignment had White in 1965 after GT-4 (June-December)? Maybe is something on GT-7 training.

In this things were more severe Slayton or Shepard? (I'm asking who were the "good cop" and who the "bad cop.")

mjanovec
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posted 12-05-2006 11:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Cassutt:
Why would White's "squeaky clean image" have hurt his astronaut career? Borman was considered just as straight an arrow, and it didn't hurt him.
It was only speculation on my part. Guys like Alan Bean, Bill Anders, and Walt Cunningham all proved themselves to be well-qualified astronauts, yet they got somewhat pushed to the side early in their careers and seemed to have to fight harder to get noticed and find themselves on a prime crew. Andy Chaikin documents this well in his book. There was frustration among some astronauts that it didn't matter how much you worked, if you weren't among Deke and Al's favorites, you were at a disadvantage from the start.

I suspect astronaut popularity among other astronauts did play a role. I recall reading that some astronauts were bothered by White's "boy scout" like image, which might be a better term than "squeaky clean." Borman was squeaky clean, but too hard-nosed to be mistaken for a boy scout.

Some apparently expressed annoyance after White later said he "felt red, white, and blue all over" during his spacewalk. I read that some doubted he really felt that way, but White insisted he did. (Perhaps I'm thinking of the McDivitt interview Novaspace did where I believe McDivitt addressed that issue.)

My hunch is that by by 1966, with there already being five classes of astronauts at the agency, the supply of astronauts exceeded the supply of potentially available seats on crucial lunar missions. I have to imagine that if one had two astronauts with the same level of ability, but had to pick only one for a mission seat, there would be a greater temptation to pick the one who better fit in with the other astronaut personalities and who was more popular among his peers.

I don't pretend to actually know why Deke picked who he picked. I was simply engaging in a little speculation based on what little I've read about the subject. (Actually, your book "DEKE!" is in my cue of books to be read next, so hopefully I'll get a better feel for the selection process after reading it.)

Michael Cassutt
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posted 12-05-2006 11:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael Cassutt   Click Here to Email Michael Cassutt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We're getting far, far into the realm of speculation and guesses here — opinions expressed just because tbey can be.

Two take two examples, Nelyubov (nice choice of name) doubts that White was a "weak astronaut". Okay, but I've actually spoken to a number of White's contemporaries about this subject and the inescapable conclusion is that he was judged to be weaker. Not incompetent, but nowhere near as widely respected as Borman, McDivitt, Armstrong, Conrad, Stafford, just to name a few from his selection group.

To take my Hudson, Wisc. friend's statement that Bean, Anders and Cunningham all "proved themselves" to be "well-qualified astronauts," did they? Had they by late 1965? Or might they have been judged to be lacking in operational experience, flying skills or engineering talent in comparison to Scott, Collins, Bassett, Gordon.

I could go point-by-point through these posts, but it would be tiresome for all of us.

(And while I'm arguing, Carmelo, you can't look back on the astronaut office in the 1960s as a "good cop, bad cop" operation. Shepard could indeed be intimidating, but he was also supremely competent, and perhaps in better position to judge an astronaut's abilities than we are, looking back from a distance of 40 years, from the outside.)

carmelo
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posted 12-06-2006 09:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for carmelo   Click Here to Email carmelo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, you are right, but would seem that Shepard had the last word in the matter, and that Big Al spoke about he self like a "son of..." with a full discretion in the chosen of crews. Maybe could be simply that White don't like to he?
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Cassutt:
I've actually spoken to a number of White's contemporaries about this subject and the inescapable conclusion is that he was judged to be weaker.
That is very, very interesting. In effect the other astronauts could not not know. Spoken with they many things would have to be known, specially on weak training or failure in technical assignment.

Honestly my opinion in matter is that in 60s around at Astronauts office and its chiefs Slayton and Shepard, had been created, we call it, a "right pack" with some astronauts, and a "second choice pack" with others, and that abilities and technical ability were only partially the reason for this.

Brock
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posted 12-06-2006 12:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brock   Click Here to Email Brock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
All we know for sure was that he accomplished everything he was supposed to accomplish on Gemini 4. Obviously someone at sometime thought that he was an outstanding pilot/engineer otherwise why would he have been picked in the second group of astronauts? I feel a little sad that people that are no longer here to defend themselves like Ed White and Elliot See get lumped into a "weaker" category when they could and would have flown a mission just as good as the others. If I recall in the book "Deke", Slayton felt that he could have called on anyone of his astronauts and could have confidence that the mission would be done right.

If NASA felt that Ed White was the second coming of John Glenn I can't understand why that would be a bad thing. White was really enthusiastic about what he did and felt it was important for the country. Why would someone have a problem with that?

I would be interested to know who really felt White was not the strongest of astronauts in terms of his skills. If I recall from Borman's book he says that Edward Higgins White was quite a guy. That is glowing praise from someone who would be in a position to know and isn't known for freely giving compliments. McDivitt sure seemed to have lots of praise for White as well.

If there are people who worked with Ed White and had feelings about him either way they should just come out and say it and put it on the record.

I for one think that Ed White was quite the guy. At least from what I have read.

ColinBurgess
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posted 12-06-2006 03:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ColinBurgess   Click Here to Email ColinBurgess     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Michael and I have played this conjecture game before, and while it's always interesting (and dare I say it, fun) it always reaches a point where no one really knows what would have happened. As always, unexpected circumstances played a large role in these things, such as what would have happened if Bassett and See had managed to get out of that dire situation in St Louis? What would have happened if Neil Armstrong had been killed in that LLRV accident? But anyway, been there, done that.

Some of the astronauts in the second group are now known to have been just a little lacking in overall proficiency, but we must also balance this against the fact that at the time of their selection, NASA still did not have a perfect understanding of what would be required of these men or the competitive challenges they might face. But these were quality guys, chosen for their outstanding ability as test pilots and coolness under pressure, and they had to quickly evolve into astronauts under immense pressure and in a high-profile space race. They went to work knowing that one serious mistake on their part could potentially hand Russia the moon. Some were found to be comparatively weaker in certain areas than others, which would be quite normal in choosing a team for any task, and it is my understanding that both White and See fell into this category. I know for a fact (and I think this is also explored in Michael's book on Deke) that Deke assigned Charlie Bassett to Elliot See as Bassett's renowned strength in some areas would help overcome perceived deficiencies in See's performance. But that's what creating a team is all about. I'm not too sure what this might say about the fact that See had originally served on the GT-5 backup crew with a certain Neil Armstrong, the first backup crew that did not go on to subsequently fly a mission together. For his part, Armstrong has always maintained that the split occurred because See was too good a pilot not to deserve a command of his own.

White was indeed a patriot, and certainly deeply affected by what he saw during his spacewalk, but I'm not too sure about the whole John Glenn comparison, based on a few utterances by White, such as his "red, white and blue all over." John Glenn was uniquely John Glenn, and I don't think that Ed White would have come anywhere near John's unabashed confidence in himself, the way he was able to act as an unelected spokesperson/leader for the Mercury guys, and the incredibly squeaky-clean Marine image he offered America at a time when the Russians seemed to have a complete ascendancy in the space race. Back in the early 1960s America was looking for a Cold War hero and that guy was John Glenn. Things were changing rapidly after White's EVA, and while the pictures and quotes were truly evocative, GT-4 did not have quite the impact of Glenn's earlier and dramatic orbital flight.

Even if Apollo 1 had flown successfully, how many kids today would probably include Ed in their very short list of known astronauts? I admire Ed a lot, as I do all of those early guys, but having lived through that incredible era I would have to say (with apologies to the others) that there never was anyone in the American space program who, in the context of space heroes and recognition, could ever come anywhere near John Glenn.

carmelo
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posted 12-06-2006 03:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for carmelo   Click Here to Email carmelo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In yours opinion in which areas were weaker White (computers, navigation, EVAs, rendezvous)?

Brock
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posted 12-07-2006 10:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brock   Click Here to Email Brock     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think the record is clear and has been written that many astronauts thought that Elliot See may have not been an aggressive enough pilot. I recall references of being "too old womanish" etc. who would let a plane get ahead of him. Some I suppose believe that was what happened at St. Louis at the time of his accident. Yet it was an accident which can happen to anyone at anytime.

Yet I still have never seen anything written about why some thought that Ed White was weak. I guess that between GT-4 and Apollo 1 he must have done something to have lost the confidence of the brass.

Michael, you mentioned that some of White's contemporaries led you to believe that they thought he wasn't the strongest of astronauts. Without revealing who said what etc. what were some of their critiques of Ed White?

If one had to do a pecking order of how NASA perceived the New 9 I suppose Borman, McDivitt and Stafford would be seen as having the strongest credentials and Armstrong, Conrad and Young would be in the middle and White and See would be at the end of the pack. That is what most books seem to indicate from what I have read.

Michael Cassutt
Member

Posts: 375
From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 12-07-2006 08:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael Cassutt   Click Here to Email Michael Cassutt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brock:
All we know for sure was that he accomplished everything he was supposed to accomplish on Gemini 4.
We don't actually know that. Were you privy to the mission debriefs? To the training teams?
quote:
Obviously someone at sometime thought that he was an outstanding pilot/engineer otherwise why would he have been picked in the second group of astronauts?
White was obviously qualified for be an astronaut, and as I have said whenever I get asked this increasingly-tiresome question, no one is claiming that he was incompetent, only that he was judged by Slayton to be weaker than several of his contemporaries.
quote:
If NASA felt that Ed White was the second coming of John Glenn I can't understand why that would be a bad thing.
There is no record of a "NASA" "feeling" about White or John Glenn. White's patriotism and enthusiasm were never questioned; the idea that his patriotism and enthusiasm were in some way the reason for the shift in his career are only speculation.
quote:
I would be interested to know who really felt White was not the strongest of astronauts in terms of his skills.
If you're looking for the statement on White, go back to the book you cite: the source is there. It's in the title, in fact.

White was well-liked by his contemporaries, especially Borman, McDivitt and Collins.

quote:
If there are people who worked with Ed White and had feelings about him either way they should just come out and say it and put it on the record.
Some of them have, to the extent it matters. This whole repeating thread is simply a response to the question was White in line for a lunar landing mission, to which the answer was "no."
quote:
I for one think that Ed White was quite the guy. At least from what I have read.
No one is saying he wasn't. Read further.

Michael Cassutt
Member

Posts: 375
From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 12-07-2006 09:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael Cassutt   Click Here to Email Michael Cassutt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brock:
Yet I still have never seen anything written about why some thought that Ed White was weak.
Again, it's White being weak-er, not weak. And you're never likely to know why. Slayton was not specific with me (while he was willing, after much coaxing, to offer evaluations of various astronauts, he was not willing to go into details. He respected these men too much — and believe it or not, was quite aware that his judgment was subjective.
quote:
Without revealing who said what etc. what were some of their critiques of Ed White?
The complete picture died with Slayton and Shepard. I could make guesses, but they'd only be guesses.

mecca
Member

Posts: 30
From: Pittsburgh
Registered: Jan 2023

posted 02-07-2023 01:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mecca   Click Here to Email mecca     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Did Deke Slayton have a falling out with Ed White? I ask this because initially Ed White was the backup commander of Gemini 7 and was the replaced with John Young.

Editor's note: Threads merged.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 49918
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 02-07-2023 01:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You should find all that can be answered on the subject (and what cannot) by reading the above posts from 2004 through 2006.

Delta7
Member

Posts: 1720
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007

posted 02-07-2023 06:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Delta7   Click Here to Email Delta7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When Slayton decided to "bump" Elliot See from Gemini 8 pilot to Gemini 9 Command Pilot (primarily because he didn't think See was physically up for the challenging 2-hour EVA added to the Gemini 8 flight plan), he created another dilemma. Where to assign John Young? Before the See switch, it's not hard to assume that Young would've been assigned as Command Pilot of Gemini 9 (with Dave Scott as Pilot) after completing his previous assignment as backup pilot of Gemini 6A.

It may have come down to Deke simply having to choose between Young and White as to which one would command a Gemini flight (Gemini 10) and which one would move over to Apollo, with the choice of Young to get another Gemini flight not necessarily a reflection of any major shortcoming on White's part. Deke had to choose, and there may have been a number of factors that went into his decision.

Had White flown as Gemini 10 command pilot, he would have wound up as the only astronaut with command, EVA, and rendezvous and docking experience when the Gemini program ended. Certainly impressive and valuable experience going into Apollo. Why Deke decided to put him on an alternate path we'll never know for sure. I've wondered if Kraft had anything to do with it after having to directly order White to end his spacewalk ("The flight director says get back in!!"). We all know he was known for blackballing astronauts who pissed him off (Carpenter, Schirra, Eisele and Cunningham the most widely known examples).


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