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  Who will be the 500th person in space?

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Author Topic:   Who will be the 500th person in space?
thump
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posted 12-18-2007 09:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for thump   Click Here to Email thump     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If my math is correct, we now have had 467 people to go into space. So who will be number 500?

cspg
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posted 12-18-2007 10:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cspg   Click Here to Email cspg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Glad my record matches yours!

Delta7
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posted 12-18-2007 10:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Delta7   Click Here to Email Delta7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Too soon to tell exactly.

If the current schedule holds, with current rookie assignments, and assuming the Chinese launch their third manned flight next year with three rookies, it should happen during STS-127, STS-128, or Soyuz TMA-14, all currently scheduled for the first quarter of 2009.

Currently, first-time fliers tentatively scheduled on those launches are Timothy Kopra (STS-127); Nicole Stott (STS-128), and Michael Barratt (Soyuz TMA-14). There likely will be a few more rookies assigned to those missions once complete crew assignments are made, so it might not be one single crew member you can point to.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 12-18-2007 10:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here's what we know so far:
  1. Alan Poindexter
  2. Stanley Love
  3. Leland Melvin
  4. Gregory H. Johnson
  5. Michael Foreman
  6. Robert Behnken
  7. Garrett Reisman
  8. Sergei Volkov
  9. Oleg Kononenko
  10. San Ko
  11. Kenneth Ham
  12. Karen Nyberg
  13. Ronald Garan
  14. Akihiko Hoshide
  15. Gregory Chamitoff
  16. Gregory C. Johnson
  17. Michael Good
  18. Megan McArthur
  19. Andrew Feustel
  20. Richard Garriott
  21. Eric Boe
  22. Stephen Bowen
  23. Robert Kimbrough
  24. Dominic Antonelli
  25. Joseph Acaba
  26. Richard Arnold

FFrench
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posted 12-18-2007 12:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FFrench     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Out of curiosity here, what is your definition of "in space"?

Are you including the SpaceShipOne and X-15 pilots who made it above 100 km, and the additional X-15 pilots who gained Air Force astronaut wings for going above 50 miles? There is some ambiguity about where to draw the line.

Delta7
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posted 12-18-2007 12:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Delta7   Click Here to Email Delta7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If it does come down to a single individual, the most likely candidates are the handful of astronauts who haven't yet been assigned to a flight.

T.J. Creamer and Shannon Walker are tentatively assigned to ISS backup crews around that period. Those that could be assigned to STS-127 or 128 are:

  • Kevin Ford
  • Doug Hurley
  • Terry Virts
  • Barry Wilmore
  • Randy Bresnick
  • Chris Cassidy
  • James Dutton
  • Jose Hernandez
  • Tom Marshburn
  • Dorothy Metcalf-Lindenburger
  • Robert Satcher
As I mentioned in my previous post, Timothy Kopra and Nicole Stott are slated for launch on STS-127 and 128 respectively.

JAXA Astronauts Satoshi Furokawa and Naoko Yamazaki are also possibilities.

It's not likely to be a cosmonaut, since the only one tentatively scheduled for launch around that period is veteran Gennadi Padalka (although his backup is rookie Maxim Suraev). There's also the third seat on Soyuz TMA-14, which could be filled by a spaceflight participant or a rookie cosmonaut.

mjanovec
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posted 12-18-2007 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If a shuttle with seven people aboard makes it into space, carrying space travelers 496-502 into space, who on board gets counted as being No. 500? The fifth-ranking crew member? Or the fifth crew member to physically pass through the imaginary plane that represents space, based on their physical location on board the orbiter?

In the end, for me, numbers such as 500 are meaningless... because they assign importance to non-important milestones, based on some round-number. Do we celebrate every 100th space traveler? Do we wait until the 1000th to make a big deal out of it?

For me, the only number that really was important was who was first in space. After that, I prefer to assign importance to the accomplishments made while in space. If the 523rd person in space does something truly remarkable on their mission, I'd prefer them to remembered much more than the 500th person in space... assuming, of course, that 500th person did nothing truly unique or remarkable during their flight, other than they just happened to get assigned the tag of being "No. 500."

FFrench
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posted 12-18-2007 01:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FFrench     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mjanovec:
If a shuttle with seven people aboard makes it into space, carrying space travelers 496-502 into space, who on board gets counted as being No. 500?

That would require a shuttle crew comprising seven rookies, which will never happen.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 12-18-2007 03:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by FFrench:
Are you including the SpaceShipOne and X-15 pilots who made it above 100 km, and the additional X-15 pilots who gained Air Force astronaut wings for going above 50 miles?
The 467 count includes everyone who made it above 62 miles per the FAI definition of where space begins. Thus, SpaceShipOne's two pilots are included, as is Joseph Walker, but not X-15 pilots who only 50 miles.

mjanovec
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posted 12-18-2007 03:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by FFrench:
That would require a shuttle crew comprising seven rookies, which will never happen.
Ah yes, you're correct. My example wasn't fully thought over.

A better example would be a shuttle crew with three veterans and four rookies, who comprise the 498th, 499th, 500th, and 501st people into space. How is the number decided... by rank, physical position on the ship, or some other criteria?

Is there any indication out there that some, if not all, astronauts pay attention to their "number" in the space-flown tally? I'd be curious to ask an astronaut "what's your number" and see if he/she knows that answer (...or if they even care).

Robert Pearlman
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posted 12-18-2007 03:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
STS-122 will launch the 300th American to fly in space and as such, I took the opportunity to question three candidates for the record (Alan Poindexter, Stan Love and Leland Melvin) both during their crew news conference and later, during one-on-one interviews with each.

The answers to both your questions were quite interesting for their insight and disparity among crew members.

(Had STS-122 already launched, I could point you to their replies, but you'll just need to wait for liftoff and our launch article for their answers.)

spaceman1953
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posted 12-18-2007 06:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceman1953   Click Here to Email spaceman1953     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think the 500th person designation is significant. How it is counted so the designation is made will probably be up to NASA.

I am sure many people will want that person's autograph to be noted "500th person to fly into space."

FFrench
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posted 12-18-2007 07:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FFrench     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
The 467 count includes everyone who made it above 62 miles per the FAI definition of where space begins.
I see — thanks. So, if you were to include those who went above 50 miles and received Air Force astronaut wings (as some history book lists do, and I can certainly see the argument — especially as Mike Adams gave his life to do so), that would include: Bob White, Robert Rushworth, Jack McKay, Bill Dana, Pete Knight, Mike Adams and Joe Engle.

Engle later made it onto your list (albeit much further down the numbers) with his shuttle flights.

Which means the 500th person in space would come six people earlier than the count given above. There's a good case here that we might have more than one contender.

quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
In the end, for me, numbers such as 500 are meaningless...
I certainly see your point. I think the individual might not be as important as the general psychological milestone — to know that 500 people have made that journey sounds pretty impressive.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 12-18-2007 08:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by FFrench:
if you were to include those who went above 50 miles
Without in anyway disparaging the admirable flights those pilots made, I think they need to be excluded from this count.

If I am not mistaken, the first X-15 flight above 50 miles was made in July 1962, more than a year after the FAI definition of 62 miles was applied to Yuri Gagarin's Vostok 1 mission, a record that the U.S. recognized. That the Air Force decided to award wings for lower altitude flights was commendable at the time (as was NASA's own ceremonial award of wings to its own pilots 40 years later) but were individual countries allowed to reset the boundary at will, however arbitrary that line between Earth and space might be, than the title of astronaut or cosmonaut or taikonaut would quickly lose its meaning.

Further, were any pilot to reach 50 miles today — for example were any of Rutan's SpaceShipOne flights not to have successfully reached 62 miles — I tend to doubt that any organization would recognize their pilots as having reached space.

FFrench
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posted 12-18-2007 10:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FFrench     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That is indeed probably the most rational way to go, as there has to be a commonly decided definition, and that's the internationally decided one.

I have to wonder about this, though, as both the 50 mile and 100 kilometer (62 mile) choices read like nice round numbers decided for convenience, rather than any particularly scientific positioning of what is of course a very difficult "boundary" to assess. If 50 miles up is essentially space conditions, or at least little different than 62 miles, then in some ways that should count for more than the convenience of a nice round number.

I believe 50 miles is on the border between thermsosphere and mesosphere, so probably not that much difference in conditions to 12 miles further up?

Anyway, this is a little off-topic. I do, recall, however, a conversation I had with Joe Engle when he told me he considered his first space flight to be in the X-15, not the shuttle.

cspg
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posted 12-19-2007 01:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cspg   Click Here to Email cspg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
The 467 count includes everyone who made it above 62 miles per the FAI definition of where space begins.
Not according to my records which also shows 467 people to have flown in space. My records include all human spaceflights including STS-51L but does not include any X-15 flights or SpaceShipOne. The total would then be 470.

Francis is correct to ask the question regarding the definition of an astronaut: earning an astronaut's wings doesn't qualify that person to be an astronaut. Had Alan Shepard and Gus Grissom not made a second "real" spaceflight (as opposed to a sub-orbital one), they wouldn't be included in my records.

Astronauts are people involved in a nation's space program (fully trained for orbital flights, hence 51-L in my records) and/or who have achieved orbital velocity. The X-15 and SpaceShipOne did not accomplish that and it's not being planned for years to come.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 12-19-2007 08:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Regardless the title they are given (e.g. astronaut, civilian astronaut, test pilot, etc.), the SpaceShipOne and X-15 pilots entered space based on the internationally-accepted definition. Therefore, they are appropriate for inclusion in a count of how many people have been in space (whereas the STS-51L first time flyers would not).
quote:
Originally posted by FFrench:
...as both the 50 mile and 100 kilometer (62 mile) choices read like nice round numbers
The 62 mile (100 km) boundary accepted by the FAI is defined as the Karman separation line, after Theodore von Karman, who proposed that above 62 miles, the air is so thin that a vehicle must travel at greater than orbital speed to stay aloft.

FFrench
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posted 12-19-2007 12:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FFrench     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, thanks, I'm aware of that.

It was decided in the mid-1950s, before the X-15 and other vehicles that explored this boundary flew. And it was indeed finalized because it was an easy number to remember:

...the altitude decided upon had a very uneasy number to remember. It was apparently von Kármán himself who realised, and proposed to the rest, the very round number of 100 km (very close to the calculated number). The rest of the people eagerly accepted it.
It is, also, just one of many possible numbers. As I mentioned, of the scientifically-used boundaries between atmospheric layers, none fall at 63 miles.

Another logical one would be at around 75 miles up which, I have read, is where the effect of atmospheric drag generally becomes noticeable on most re-entering space vehicles.

Please note, I am not disagreeing that there have to be official lines drawn when there are going to be official lists and records — and, when the possibilities are examined, von Kármán's boundary has many advantages — one of which is that it is the most commonly and officially accepted.

I'd hope, however, that it is recognized that setting such an official boundary is like trying to draw a line around a cloud: there is plenty of room for debate and interpretation. And, perhaps most importantly, if a history book chose to state something like, for example, Mike Adams was a space mission fatality in 1967, with his tragic loss on re-entry from a 50.3-mile-high mission in the X-15, this would not be dismissed as simply "wrong," but rather another viewpoint with some plausible supporting evidence.

Evidently the Astronaut Memorial Foundation thought so. Adams' name is on the Space Mirror Memorial at Kennedy Space Center.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 12-19-2007 12:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just minor point, but a spaceflight is not a prerequisite for inclusion on the Space Mirror, as evident by the three STS-51L crew members, nor is it necessary to have been on a flight destined for space, as represented by Charles Bassett, Elliot See, C.C. Williams, Robert Lawrence and Sonny Carter (and why Edward Givens' absence is so regrettable).

I agree though, that discussion of Adams' record can be considered a spaceflight under the confines of the U.S. Air Force definition. However, for the purposes of comparison against the wider international community of space explorers, I believe he is excluded.

FFrench
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posted 12-19-2007 10:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FFrench     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert:
a spaceflight is not a prerequisite...
Very true. I wonder, however, under what guidelines he would have been included on the Space Mirror if not for his flight above 50 miles and thus a USAF astronaut designation. He was neither a NASA astronaut in training, nor flying a training vehicle while in a different astronaut program (such as Lawrence). Those are the guidelines that I understand to be the reason Givens, the only fatality of the 1960s not flying a training vehicle at the time, is excluded from consideration.

The only other reason I can imagine is that he had previously been an MOL pilot selectee, who chose to drop out to fly the X-15 instead. But then, if former astronaut candidates were included who later died in air accidents considered to be non-space flights, David Griggs and Bob Overmyer would also be on the Mirror.

So I keep coming back to his X-15 flight being considered a spaceflight by the selection committee. Unless someone here knows otherwise?

Robert Pearlman
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posted 12-19-2007 10:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The AMF website includes a brief biography for each person they honor on the mirror. Adams' entry is concluded as follows:
Michael J. Adams made the ultimate sacrifice and lost his life in service to the nation and the space program on November 15, 1967 at 37 years of age.
They do make note of the altitude he attained but not in any way that a casual reader would notice the distinction (the altitude is listed in feet).

FFrench
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posted 12-19-2007 10:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FFrench     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Lost his life in service... to the space program" certainly suggests one viewpoint, although open to interpretation.

This has been an interesting conversation.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 02-04-2008 08:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Based on a count that includes anyone who has flown above the internationally-set 62 miles, here's what we know so far...
2008

STS-122:
468. Alan Poindexter
469. Stanley Love
470. Leland Melvin

STS-123:
471. Gregory H. Johnson
472. Michael Foreman
473. Robert Behnken
474. Garrett Reisman

Soyuz TMA-12
475. Sergei Volkov
476. Oleg Kononenko
477. Soyeon Yi

STS-124:
478. Kenneth Ham
479. Karen Nyberg
480. Ronald Garan
481. Akihiko Hoshide
482. Gregory Chamitoff

STS-125:
483. Gregory C. Johnson
484. Michael Good
485. Megan McArthur
486. Andrew Feustel

Soyuz TMA-13:
487. Richard Garriott

STS-126:
488. Eric Boe
489. Stephen Bowen
490. Robert Kimbrough

2009

STS-119:
491. Dominic Antonelli
492. Joseph Acaba
493. Richard Arnold

STS-127:
494. Douglas Hurley
495. Christopher Cassidy
496. Thomas Marshburn
497. Timothy Kopra

At this point, we don't know who else might be assigned to the following crews (or later flights) but there are other rookies said to be assigned:
Soyuz TMA-14:
498. Michael Barratt

STS-128:
###. Nicole Stott

Soyuz TMA-16:
###. Mikhail Kornienko
###. Roman Romanenko

2010

Soyuz TMA-17:
###. Maxim Surayev
###. Timothy Creamer

And then, of course, there is Shenzhou VII, currently targeted for launch before STS-127, and SpaceShipTwo test flights scheduled to begin in 2009.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 02-07-2008 04:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Had STS-122 already launched, I could point you to their replies...
Their replies (and our launch article) has now been published.
Positioned between the two European astronauts aboard Atlantis is the 300th American to enter space, but only by a few inches. The 301st and 302nd astronauts were quick to follow him by less than a second.

"I think if you look at the shuttle, [Stan Love is] the first one in space," said STS-122 pilot Alan Poindexter in an interview with collectSPACE. "Stan is on the middeck and I think the middeck seats are actually slightly forward of the pilot seat. I think when you go up to the flight deck, you are actually, maybe a little aft of the forward middeck seats," explained Poindexter, who like Love is making his first flight.

Not that Love is enamored with the title.

"If you're the first, it's a big deal. If you're the 300th or the 301st, to me it's no difference," said Love.

Poindexter agreed. "It's a unique novelty but it doesn't mean much. What it means is that there have been 300 Americans in space and someday, hopefully, it will be 3,000. We would really like to have more people in space. That's what we're after, right?"

Mission specialist Leland Melvin, a former NFL football player, is the third on the crew that was eligible for the record. He is seated on the flight deck behind Poindexter.

"When I look back on the people that have paved the way, the Gemini, the Apollo, the Mercury programs, the Skylab and all these programs, they have passed on this lineage and this heritage to us. In turn, I hope that I can do the same for the next explorers that will help inspire this next generation of explorers. It's an honor if I were to go down as the 300th [American] in space," Melvin said.

Ben
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posted 02-08-2008 07:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ben   Click Here to Email Ben     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
An interesting fact I realized that I felt was worth noting: Joe Walker is the first person to have gone into space twice, and not Grissom as many sources say.

machbusterman
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posted 02-10-2008 03:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for machbusterman   Click Here to Email machbusterman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just don't get how you can exclude the X-15 pilots and their astronaut flights. NASA has recognized that Dana, McKay and Walker as astronauts by the presentation of astronaut wings at a ceremony at Dryden in 2005.

Along with White, Rushworth, Engle, Knight and Adams that makes eight of the twelve X-15 pilots having made sub-orbital astronaut flights in the X-15.

If you exclude all X-15 flights that did not reach the FAI required 62 miles or 100 km and include the SpaceShipOne astronaut flights but not include Walker's record altitude of 354,200 feet that I cannot understand.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 02-10-2008 09:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The FAI rule, however arbitrary its definition might be, was recognized by the U.S. and Soviet Union before the X-15 flew. NASA astronauts (as well as Soviet cosmonauts) received FAI certificates for their flight records, and (at least) the USSR took direct actions in order to qualify for those records.

Under the FAI definition, Walker and the SpaceShipOne pilots Melvill and Binnie are included in the count, while the other X-15 pilots are excluded as they did not reach 62 miles (with the exception of Engle, of course, who later entered space on STS-2).

That the U.S. Air Force chose to draw the line lower and award astronaut wings based on their own definition was its own choice. That NASA decided to honor the achievements of their pilots in a similar fashion was commendable. However, as the rest of the world does not consider 50 miles as the boundary between earth and space, it not a common border and therefore cannot be used as a measuring stick when considering all space explorers worldwide and throughout history.

Philip
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posted 02-11-2008 11:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Philip   Click Here to Email Philip     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Could it be Belgian Frank DeWinne who was selected for his second mission on-board ISS for May 2009 for a long duration mission of six months?

Robert Pearlman
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posted 02-11-2008 11:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
By definition then, no: the count is based on first flights into space. Only rookies would be eligible for the 500th person title.

(De Winne is, according to SpaceFacts.de, number 424.)

Robert Pearlman
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posted 03-01-2009 11:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As of today, the 500th person in space (as defined by international standards) will be aboard STS-127.

Updating the chart I posted last February for what actually happened in 2008 and what will now happen in 2009:

2008

STS-122:
468. Alan Poindexter
469. Stanley Love
470. Leland Melvin

STS-123:
471. Gregory H. Johnson
472. Michael Foreman
473. Robert Behnken
474. Garrett Reisman

Soyuz TMA-12
475. Sergei Volkov
476. Oleg Kononenko
477. Soyeon Yi

STS-124:
478. Kenneth Ham
479. Karen Nyberg
480. Ronald Garan
481. Akihiko Hoshide
482. Gregory Chamitoff

Shenzhou VII:
483: Zhai Zhigang
484: Liu Boming
485: Jing Haipeng

Soyuz TMA-13:
486: Richard Garriott

STS-126:
487: Eric Boe
488: Stephen Bowen
489: Robert Kimbrough

2009

STS-119:
490: Dominic Antonelli
491: Joseph Acaba
492: Richard Arnold

Soyuz TMA-14:
493: Michael Barratt

STS-125:
494. Gregory C. Johnson
495. Michael Good
496. Megan McArthur
497. Andrew Feustel

Soyuz TMA-15:
498: Roman Romanenko

STS-127:
499. Douglas Hurley
500. Christopher Cassidy
501. Thomas Marshburn
502. Timothy Kopra

Of course, that doesn't mean Cassidy is the 500th; the order is only based on the traditional order of crew lists.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 05-29-2009 08:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The 500th person in space will be STS-127 mission specialist Chris Cassidy.

As a forthcoming article will share, there are four first time fliers on STS-127, representing the 499th, 500th, 501st and 502nd people to fly above 62 miles.

Cassidy's claim on the title of number 500 was confirmed by his crewmates based on where he will be seated when Endeavour launches.

spaceman
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posted 06-01-2009 06:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceman   Click Here to Email spaceman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I tend to go with the first flight order list provided by the Association of Space Explorers.

Romanenko is currently listed as No. 495.

Include the four first timers on STS-127 to take it to 499. That leaves STS-128 to come up with no. 500 (pilot Kevin Ford) with mission specialists Jose Hernandez and Nicole Stott a close 501 and 502.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 06-01-2009 07:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Unfortunately, the Association of Space Explorers' spreadsheet has a problem with its logic, at least if it is to be used to determine records.

It identifies Alan Shepard's and Gus Grissom's sub-orbital Mercury flights as the second and third spaceflight in history but does not include the SpaceShipOne sub-orbital flights by Mike Melvill and Brian Binnie (let alone the X-15 flights above 62 miles).

Were Shepard and Grissom rearranged in the list to reflect only their first orbital mission (to maintain a logic for those included) it would still only be a list of orbital spaceflights.

Therefore it is not equipped to answer "Who will be the 500th person in space?".

spaceman
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From: Walsall, West Midlands, UK
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posted 06-03-2009 02:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceman   Click Here to Email spaceman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Doesn't NASA recognise the Alan Shepard and Gus Grissom flights as the second and third spaceflights in history too or am I missing something?

Where does one find the definitive list to which you are using to come up with No. 500 please?

Robert Pearlman
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Posts: 47256
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 06-03-2009 02:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is no definitive published list, though for another example, see Bill Harwood's current space demographics.

The problem isn't the order in which Shepard and Grissom are counted, but if their sub-orbital flights are counted at all. If they are — and I would argue, and NASA agrees, that they should be — then logic dictates that the other sub-orbital flights above 62 miles must be counted as well (i.e. X-15 and SpaceShipOne). The Association of Space Explorers' list excludes these.

spaceman
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Posts: 1138
From: Walsall, West Midlands, UK
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 06-04-2009 01:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceman   Click Here to Email spaceman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Recalculating that makes Joseph Walker (13), Mike Melvill (435) and Brian Binnie (436). Please confirm.

I have included the full list and if correct, I will now have to rejig several websites I have running. What is the consensus on this everybody?

Andy
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Posts: 32
From:
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 06-12-2009 09:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Andy   Click Here to Email Andy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Were Shepard and Grissom rearranged in the list to reflect only their first orbital mission (to maintain a logic for those included) it would still only be a list of orbital spaceflights.
Correct, we only count folks who have flown to orbit. Al and Gus are listed, by order of flight (including the hops) because they did in fact later orbit.

So, my list is really the list of those who have flown to orbit, in order of their flights to space. Therefore, we will naturally distinguish between the 500th in space, and the 500th in orbit. The latter will come from the next rookie to fly after STS-127.

MrSpace86
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Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 06-12-2009 11:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MrSpace86   Click Here to Email MrSpace86     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Didn't they recently determine that space begins at about 73 miles and not 62 miles? If that were to be put in place, then X-15 and SpaceShipOne would both be eliminated.

I have had this discussion before. I don't include any X-15 flights, not even Walker (who was above 62 miles) but I do include SpaceShipOne. In my list, the STS-127 crew members will make the 500 mark. If I did not include SpaceShipOne, then it would be up to 499. If the 73 mile mark is taken, even Binnie's flight would have to be excluded.

I guess it's all a matter of preference and opinion. I decided to stick with STS-127 carrying the 500th traveler.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 47256
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 06-12-2009 02:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
People can choose to count with whatever method they desire, however officially, ruling is deferred to the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale (FAI) to establish world records and they hold that 62 miles is where space begins (the 73 miles cited was more of a scientific study and had no bearing on the previously set rules).

By their rules, anyone who flies above 62 miles has been in space and therefore counts toward to the total.

All times are CT (US)

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