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Author Topic:   Aurora "Second Chance" Auction
413 is in
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From: Alexandria, VA USA
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posted 04-19-2007 12:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 413 is in   Click Here to Email 413 is in     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Any word on the Aurora Second Chance auction? I see no info on the Aurora web site. There is a link listed on "eBay Live" for an auction on April 21 but there are no items posted. That's just two days away. Has it been cancelled?

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b i l l

VCampbell
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From: Bell Canyon CA USA
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posted 04-19-2007 12:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for VCampbell   Click Here to Email VCampbell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just received in our office a large collection of items from a long time collector that we wish to include in our follow-on sale, including Armstrong autographs and Apollo 11 crew signed pieces (a sample of which will be on our website shortly). For this reason, I am moving our follow-on sale date to May 12, 2007 at 9:00 am PST.

Best regards,
Victoria Campbell
CEO Aurora

Scott
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posted 04-19-2007 04:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott   Click Here to Email Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just viewed the astronaut autograph images (which are posted as of this writing) here:

http://www.auroragalleriesonline.com/


Long-time, noted collector?

mjanovec
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posted 04-19-2007 05:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow. If the sample is anything like the rest of the collection, I'd hold off selling those things even longer. Instead of the 12th of May, I suggest the 12th of Never.

James Brown
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posted 04-19-2007 06:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for James Brown   Click Here to Email James Brown     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Victoria,

These are horrible, not one of them is authentic. Please look into bringing someone onboard with autograph experience to weed through what you have. You'll only make yourself look bad if you don't.

James

fabfivefreddy
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From: Leawood, Kansas USA
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 04-19-2007 11:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fabfivefreddy   Click Here to Email fabfivefreddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Victoria-

I have never posted anything negative about your auctions. But I must say that this is absolutely shameful. These signatures are easily identified as non-authentic by any collector with even reasonable knowledge.
I hope you can address these issues in future auctions. People with a passion for these expensive and rare items are looking for leadership and skills that add to their collections in a positive manner.

I truly hope that your company takes these matters seriously and puts forth greater effort at correcting a potential problem with authentication.

respectfully-

Tahir

GerryM
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From: Glenside PA
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posted 04-20-2007 07:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for GerryM   Click Here to Email GerryM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VCampbell:
I just received in our office a large collection of items from a long time collector that we wish to include in our follow-on sale, including Armstrong autographs and Apollo 11 crew signed pieces (a sample of which will be on our website shortly). For this reason, I am moving our follow-on sale date to May 12, 2007 at 9:00 am PST.

Best regards,
Victoria Campbell
CEO Aurora


I think you got everyone's curiosity...who is this long time collector who is trying to pass these bogus autographs???


Leon Ford
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posted 04-20-2007 07:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Leon Ford   Click Here to Email Leon Ford     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is nothing new. Business as usual at Aurora.

When will it ever change???

Leon

machbusterman
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From: Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland
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posted 04-20-2007 03:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for machbusterman   Click Here to Email machbusterman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Inexperienced collectors are easily duped into buying fake items such as these (and others that were sold in last weekend's auction) because they TRUST the auction-house to sell items that are at least checked thoroughly by "experts" prior to listing. From what I've seen from this and previous catalogues it appears that the person that does the authentication (if there even is one?) needs to visit "Specsavers" or some other optician as they must be blind to let such items slip through into the catalogue.

Until this woefully inept authentication problem is sorted out I (and am sure many others others that read this forum!!) will not be bidding on any other items offered by this auction house.

- Derek

H E Pennypacker
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From: Sydney, NSW, Australia
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posted 04-20-2007 05:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for H E Pennypacker   Click Here to Email H E Pennypacker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting that if someone posts "when's the next auction?" or "when is the catalogue due?", the CEO can't reply quick enough. Never a response to the serious issue of selling and advertising known forgeries though...

413 is in
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From: Alexandria, VA USA
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posted 05-05-2007 01:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 413 is in   Click Here to Email 413 is in     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It’s now seven days and counting to the “follow-on” sale. No catalog has been posted to the Aurora web site or to eBay. Perhaps it will be a silent auction.

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b i l l

Matt T
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From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
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posted 05-14-2007 05:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Matt T   Click Here to Email Matt T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Seems to be online now at the Aurora site - just click the top catalogue link on the 'Catalogues' page.

Cheers,
Matt

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www.spaceracemuseum.com

Leon Ford
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From: Shreveport, LA, United States
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posted 05-14-2007 06:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Leon Ford   Click Here to Email Leon Ford     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There's better stuff on Ebay.

I wish that instead of trying to have an auction two or three times a year, the auction houses would wait and have one auction a year or every other year and have really good items. Most of the stuff lately has been pretty bad.

Leon

br62
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From: The Frozen Tundra
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posted 05-14-2007 11:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for br62   Click Here to Email br62     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with Leon. Not very impressive.

Even worse, the awful Mercury 7 and Ed White covers from that "long time, noted collector" are still included in this auction.

Seems pretty obvious no one at Aurora cares at all or actually bothers to review these items.

Bruce

Frank
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posted 05-15-2007 11:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Frank   Click Here to Email Frank     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It seems the auction is on May 19. The catalogue is on ebay Liveauctions now.
http://www.liveauctions.ebay.com/catalogs/21584

Frank

Edited by Frank

mjanovec
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posted 05-15-2007 01:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by br62:
Even worse, the awful Mercury 7 and Ed White covers from that "long time, noted collector" are still included in this auction.

If they are not going to reveal who this "long time, noted collector" is, then it has no place even being mentioned...regardless of whether the items are authentic or not. It's a meaningless statement unless a name is revealed.

At least Superior and Swann revealed the owners of the large collections they recently sold.

Actually, I'd really like to know what noted collector is trying to dump these items on other collectors.

Leon Ford
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From: Shreveport, LA, United States
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posted 05-15-2007 02:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Leon Ford   Click Here to Email Leon Ford     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Don't blame a "noted collector", blame Aurora! Aurora is the one trying to dump this trash on all space collectors.

Leon

Ken Havekotte
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posted 05-15-2007 03:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Of what I could see from some of Aurora's illustrated lots, there are still many autopens described as genuine on space covers such as Borman, White, Young, Mattingly, Irwin, and even bogus autographs of the Mercury 7 (mentioned before that are quite obvious) along with Leonov, Kubasov, Aldrin, and Collins, just for starters. It would be nice if Aurora could tell us what "noted long-time collector" they came from and why hasn't the Mercury 7 and White forgeries been withdrawn?

capoetc
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From: McKinney TX (USA)
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posted 05-20-2007 08:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for capoetc   Click Here to Email capoetc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So, who won what in the Aurora second chance auction?

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John Capobianco
Camden DE

cosmos-walter
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From: Salzburg, Austria
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posted 05-20-2007 10:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cosmos-walter   Click Here to Email cosmos-walter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Probably I am not the only collector who did not find a single lot worth bidding on

413 is in
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From: Alexandria, VA USA
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posted 05-20-2007 10:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 413 is in   Click Here to Email 413 is in     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I didn't win a thing.

Frederic Janik
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posted 05-20-2007 01:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Frederic Janik   Click Here to Email Frederic Janik     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi

I have been astounded at the regularity shown by Aurora in offering fakes and autopens, and at their constant ignoring of collectors when issues such as these are raised.

As was mentioned earlier, Mrs Campbell uses this forum regularly as a free advertising platform but has never replied a thing about authentication.

I have been refraining to bid on the past few auctions because of this, and I am sure several other collectors will do the same.

Actually, without disrespect to Robert, I wonder why somebody who KNOWINGLY and repeatedly profits off the ignorance of the new collectors is still allowed to post on collectSpace?

Frederic

Matt T
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From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
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posted 05-20-2007 04:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Matt T   Click Here to Email Matt T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's also depressing that dozens of collectors on this forum are prepared to heap scorn on the sellers of fakes on eBay, but very few are prepared to stand up and complain about the big auction houses - presumably for fear of being 'black-listed'.

Aurora are free to run their business any way they choose, but if collectors on a collectors' forum aren't prepared to criticize them then we get exactly what we deserve. The falling standards in authentication of spacesuit hardware (my own interest) is getting beyond a joke. I've tried constructively to raise questions with Aurora and even their consignors on occasion with only limited success. As a result some material of extremely dubious provenance has been passed off as authentic Mercury, Gemini and Apollo suit hardware and entered the collecting community. Worse still some of these items are now being resold. Concerns about these items were flagged by myself and other collectors, but Aurora still went ahead and sold them.

An individual member of this forum would never be allowed to get away with it.

Cheers,
Matt

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www.spaceracemuseum.com

Robert Pearlman
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posted 05-20-2007 05:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Matt T:
It's also depressing that dozens of collectors on this forum are prepared to heap scorn on the sellers of fakes on eBay, but very few are prepared to stand up and complain about the big auction houses -
But is that a fair comparison? Sure, there have been a scattering of threads here and there that are aimed directly at critiquing eBay, the company, but the vast majority are targeted at the specific seller (consignor). Granted, eBay doesn't allow its sellers to remain entirely anonymous as does the auction houses like Aurora and Regency-Superior, but they don't require them to use their real name (publicly) either.

So to be fair, shouldn't the criticism leveled against any particular lot from Aurora, Regency, Swann, etc. be directed at the consignor, however anonymous he/she is? Or do we hold Aurora and other "real world" auction houses to a higher degree of responsibility than eBay? And if so, why?

To address Frederic's concern, were a representative from eBay to have registered for collectSPACE to promote their space memorabilia categories, would you have me ban him/her as well?

By allowing an open discussion of the different auctions, the hope is to foster a better understanding between the companies and their clientele. That any given company, whether it be Aurora or eBay chooses to ignore that opportunity is, I believe, to their detriment. However, I think blocking them from future participation is equally detrimental to the community if for no other reason than there are consignors and bidders among the cS membership and readership who, for their own reasons, have chosen Aurora, eBay, etc., to sell their authentic items. Do they not deserve an equal opportunity for their items to be seen and bid upon?

I want to be very clear that it is my opinion that all the auction houses, real world or online, leave a lot to be desired. If an auction house can use the identity of a consignor to promote a lot's sale (e.g. ex. an astronaut's collection) then they should be able to share the identity of all their consignors, especially in the case when they are using their consignor's "word" to authenticate an item (i.e. "Who are we to disagree with what our seller tells us is true?").

As forgeries flourish and fakes abound, it's becoming increasingly important that auction houses make a choice: either protect your consignors' identities and spend the resources to independently authenticate each and every item they offer or, pull back the curtain on consignors and let them defend their own lots, for better or for worse.

Edited by Robert Pearlman

LCDR Scott Schneeweis
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posted 05-20-2007 06:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LCDR Scott Schneeweis   Click Here to Email LCDR Scott Schneeweis     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
So to be fair, shouldn't the criticism leveled against any particular lot from Aurora, Regency, Swann, etc. be directed at the consignor, however anonymous he/she is? Or do we hold Aurora and other "real world" auction houses to a higher degree of responsibility than eBay? And if so, why?
Yes - Auction houses merit a higher degree of accountability because unlike Ebay they are not neutral parties in the transaction. Auction Houses have a vetting process through which they describe and grade a lot assigning perceived value via factual and subjective analysis - a function which is otherwise left to the Consignee on Ebay.

------------------
Scott Schneeweis

URL http://www.SPACEAHOLIC.com/

Edited by LCDR Scott Schneeweis

DOX32
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From: Lakewood Ranch FL USA
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posted 05-20-2007 08:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DOX32   Click Here to Email DOX32     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I too am put off by the second offering from Aurora.

Made two small purchases in the first auction, but none in the second time around.

Even a rank novice like me could see the many autopen items still in the second offering. Just plan stayed away.

Woody

mjanovec
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From: Midwest, USA
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posted 05-20-2007 10:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
So to be fair, shouldn't the criticism leveled against any particular lot from Aurora, Regency, Swann, etc. be directed at the consignor, however anonymous he/she is? Or do we hold Aurora and other "real world" auction houses to a higher degree of responsibility than eBay? And if so, why?

The difference, as I see it, is that the auction houses such as Aurora choose which items they will accept and sell. Their specialty is space memorabilia. There is an implied level of trust from many buyers that the specialty auction houses know their stuff and would only sell authentic mechandise. And as we've seen in this thread, some are willing to tout the sources of their goods as being from noted collectors. So one presumes they know what they are auctioning...and are looking over each lot (because, after all, they publish glossy catalogs highlighting each item).

Ebay, instead, is like a really large public flea market with thousands of categories where, by and large, Ebay does not review and approve each lot for sale...unless it breaks specific rules. It's truly a "buyer beware" market. But I think most people buying from Ebay are aware of that.

Also, buying from a specialty auction house usually comes at a greater cost...up to 20% commission for buyers (not to mention sellers too). Some of these auction houses make $40 for every $100 sold. If those costs don't include some time and effort to weed out even the most obvious fakes and autopens, where is there any value in paying extra to deal with these auction houses? As an example of a place that does it right, R&R employs an authenticator to go over their stuff. Why can't some other auction houses do the same? For the money that is being made, surely it can't be a huge expense to employ someone twice a year to review the lots and weed out at least the most obvious fakes and autopens.

I can understand a couple of very well done forgeries slipping through the cracks, but we've apparently been seeing some really badly done forgeries auctioned lately. And some have a long history of being noted as forgeries, like the Neil Armstrong Spitfire photo. If one can't rely on a specialty space auction house to catch even the most basic forgeries, can one trust them to get the $50,000 items right too?


Edited by mjanovec

Frederic Janik
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From: Helsinki, Finland
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posted 05-20-2007 11:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Frederic Janik   Click Here to Email Frederic Janik     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:

So to be fair, shouldn't the criticism leveled against any particular lot from Aurora, Regency, Swann, etc. be directed at the consignor, however anonymous he/she is? Or do we hold Aurora and other "real world" auction houses to a higher degree of responsibility than eBay? And if so, why?


Robert

Thanks for your reply.

As noted above Aurora are specialising in Space offerings. This noted specialisation and their cooperation with a moonwalker makes them somewhat a reference among the space auctions.

On the secondary market you will see lots (on eBay for instance) marked as "originally purchased at Aurora auctions in April 2006" and this is used to add credibility to the provenance of the piece. You never see any item advertised as "originally purchased on eBay in April 2006"..

But anyway, whether Aurora are self-claimed Space experts or not, the main concern to me remains the disdain they show us by never accepting the mistakes they make (never even replying to questions about authenticity concerns), and not removing the autopens from the auctions when shown to them. This is a scandal.

Frederic

gliderpilotuk
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From: London, UK
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posted 05-21-2007 02:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gliderpilotuk   Click Here to Email gliderpilotuk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Frankly, if the 40% commission spread on an auction item can't cover a ten-minute review of the item's validity what on Earth are we paying for?
What service are they offering beyond a central collection and distribution point, which anyone with a website and few contacts can do?

(To all auction houses)If you don't have the expertise in-house, then pay someone a retainer to do the checks.

Paul

combz220
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posted 05-24-2007 11:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for combz220   Click Here to Email combz220     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This has been a great thread. I enjoy reading all the input from different people all over the world.
I agree that Aurora has to be responsible for selling these fake items. I strictly sell space-related items, and am not a collector. I consigned about 100 items with Aurora last year, and was absolutely disappointed with the service. As previously stated, they do not put in the time or effort. It took me over a year to get paid for my items. The items were poorly portrayed and had very brief and lazy descriptions. I will never do business with the company again, and will probably stick strictly to eBay.

Novaspace
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From: Tucson, AZ USA
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posted 05-24-2007 03:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Novaspace     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm kind of tired of all the apologists for Aurora, when venues like Astro-Auction and the upcoming Spacefest live auction get little or no mention, probably because of the lack of controversy about authenticity.

However, I'm happy to see the theme in this thread, that the empress has no clothes. I think Aurora's days as a serious source for space memorabilia are ending, and it's their own fault for blowing it. They once were on top.

Kim Poor
www.astro-auction.com
www.spacefest.info/Auction.html

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