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  Control of Dragon and CST-100 Starliner

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Author Topic:   Control of Dragon and CST-100 Starliner
JohnPaul56
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Posts: 180
From: Montclair, NJ, USA
Registered: Apr 2010

posted 08-08-2018 07:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for JohnPaul56     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
After hearing some of the interviews of the newly-assigned commercial crew members, how automated are the SpaceX Dragon and Boeing CST-100 Starliner spacecraft?

Are they closer to a Soyuz in operation? How much pilot interaction can there be with the spacecraft systems in terms of actually flying each vehicle?

Can they be completely flown manually like Gemini?

Jim Behling
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From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010

posted 08-08-2018 07:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Behling   Click Here to Email Jim Behling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Define "manual."

Soyuz can be flown "manual" like Gemini, meaning all crew inputs and no ground control. But Gemini also could fly on computer control for some.

Both CST-100 and Dragon 2 are capable of flying like the Dragon 1 and Cygnus or like the shuttle with crew inputs.

I don't use Gemini as an example because there always is a computer in modern spacecraft (like modern airliners) that translates crew inputs into maneuvers.

JohnPaul56
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Posts: 180
From: Montclair, NJ, USA
Registered: Apr 2010

posted 08-08-2018 07:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for JohnPaul56     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks, I was under the impression that during the course of regular operations (if you can use that phrase!) Soyuz would be automated up to docking with the International Space Station.

So, can Dragon and CST-100 be flown with a "stick" like Gemini? Can re-entry be flown by the commander, or whoever would be equivalent to the command module pilot on Apollo, if required?

One other question, I know that during the launch phase of Saturn V, the commander had the ability to control the orientation of the vehicle if needed (although I'll bet no one would want to try that, like a RTLS abort with shuttle). I assume these commercial vehicles have similar capabilities, yes?

Robert Pearlman
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From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 08-08-2018 08:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The details of what can and cannot be controlled from on board the commercial crew spacecraft — in particular, with regards to Dragon — have not been made public.

Based on a recent experience "flying" the Boeing Mission Simulator, manual control is possible aboard Starliner and all critical controls have a corresponding switch, button or hand controller input. As to how that translates, though, to the different phases of flight is still to be seen.

(Not even the astronauts know it yet; in interviews with both Boeing- and SpaceX-assigned astronauts, they both said that they still need time to go through the flight profiles with their respective company's flight engineers.)

Jim Behling
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From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010

posted 08-08-2018 08:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Behling   Click Here to Email Jim Behling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JohnPaul56:
Soyuz would be automated up to docking
Soyuz also has hand controllers and can be flown manually.
quote:
So, can Dragon and CST-100 be flown with a "stick"...
They have hand controllers and can be flown like the shuttle. Just like the Shuttle, Apollo had an automated entry, Hand controlling was not necessary.
quote:
I assume these commercial vehicles have similar capabilities, yes?
No. And it really wasn't feasible on Apollo.

Headshot
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From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 08-08-2018 10:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Headshot   Click Here to Email Headshot     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Has the transit time from launch to docking at the ISS been disclosed for Dragon and Starliner? With Soyuz it ranges from days to hours.

Robert Pearlman
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From: Houston, TX
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posted 08-08-2018 10:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
According to interviews with the test flight crews, the nominal is two days, but the initial flights may take longer as the vehicles are put through their paces and post-launch checkouts are verified by the ground.

J Blackburn
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From: Riner, Virginia USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted 08-08-2018 01:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for J Blackburn   Click Here to Email J Blackburn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Who will be controling flight operations for both of the commercial crew vehicles?

Will Boeing and SpaceX have there own flight control room and provide flight control after launch until ISS docking? Or will the NASA JSC ISS Control Room handle all flight control from launch to docking to splashdown?

Robert Pearlman
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From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 08-08-2018 02:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Copying my reply from this thread:
For launch, either through tower clear or spacecraft separation (a point still being decided), the companies are in charge of their own vehicles. Through docking with the space station, it is company specific:
  • SpaceX will staff its own mission control for Dragon at its facilities in Hawthorne, California;
  • Boeing has contracted with NASA's Flight Operations Directorate to have the space agency's flight controllers run a dedicated flight control room for Starliner inside the Mission Control Center at Johnson Space Center in Houston.
While aboard the space station, the astronauts (even corporate astronauts) answer to NASA and international partners' mission controls.

At undocking and through re-entry, control is returned to the companies (SpaceX through Hawthorne and Boeing through Houston).

Jim Behling
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From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010

posted 08-08-2018 02:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Behling   Click Here to Email Jim Behling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
For launch, either through tower clear or spacecraft separation (a point still being decided), the companies are in charge of their own vehicles.
Robert, I am correct here?

The question here isn't whether it is NASA but whether the launch vehicle provider has a role in the case of CST-100 and ULA.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 08-08-2018 02:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From what I understand, it is NASA, the launch providers (if separate, i.e. ULA) and the commercial crew providers who are still working this out.

In Starliner's case, the Boeing ops team is NASA FOD (under contract), so the discussion involves the space agency. In SpaceX's case, it is just parts of the same company handing over control.

JohnPaul56
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Posts: 180
From: Montclair, NJ, USA
Registered: Apr 2010

posted 08-08-2018 04:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JohnPaul56     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I’m sure many of these questions are probably premature, but I assume they will conduct countdown demonstration tests for all the vehicles. Would those sims be conducted both at NASA and the respective contractors simultaneously? During Apollo, I thought the North American Rockwell guys were at the Cape while these tests were being conducted. Would the scenario be the same here?

One other question, are the ECS atmospheres the same for both CST-100 and Dragon? Are they similar to Apollo (mixed nitrogen and O2 until they reached orbit, then going to pure O2).

Sorry about the barrage of questions. Starting to get really excited that we'll have astronauts launching on our own vehicles. I'm hoping that the press will be as excited as I'm sure everyone on collectSPACE will be!

Robert Pearlman
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Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 08-08-2018 04:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, terminal countdown demonstration tests are planned, though whether they run like they did during the shuttle program is still to be seen. NASA will be involved in so much that it the agency's crew members taking part. The launch pads, vehicles and mission controls will be run by the companies (or their designated partners).

The atmospheres aboard both vehicles is consistent with the atmosphere aboard the space station.

Jim Behling
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Posts: 1463
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010

posted 08-08-2018 08:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Behling   Click Here to Email Jim Behling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mission Dress Rehearsals are a common practice for unmanned missions where NASA and both spacecraft and launch vehicle contractors participate. NASA is present in both control centers at the launch site. A CCDT would just be a more intensive rehearsal. Don't know what you mean by "at NASA and the respective contractors simultaneously"? The LC-39 LCC will not be used for CCP.

Spacecraft contractors operate their own spacecraft (or NASA has another contractor operate it, LSOC/USA for shuttle and TOSC for Orion). For Apollo, Rockwell was in the spacecraft control center (ACE room) in the MSOB and also did the work on the vehicles in the MSOB high bay, VAB and pad.

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