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Author
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Topic: Original shuttle test flight crew assignments
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Tom
Member Posts: 1597
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 01-10-2010 12:12 PM
   
Back in 1978 the following crews were assigned to the first four shuttle test flights: - Young - Crippen
- Engle - Truly
- Haise - Lousma
- Brand - Fullerton
When Haise retired, STS-3 became Lousma and Fullerton. At the same time STS-4 became Mattingly and Hartsfield.Does anyone know why Mattingly ended up with the fourth flight with Brand moved back to STS-5? |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1505
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 01-10-2010 03:47 PM
My GUESS is that it was because it was decided to have the first classified DOD operation on STS-4, and that Mattingly was assigned (with Hartsfield) because he had worked closely with the DOD on their Shuttle requirements. I don't know if this was done before or after Mattingly and Hartsfield were assigned as the backup crew for STS-2 and/or STS-3, which may or may not have been another factor. |
webhamster
Member Posts: 106
From: Ottawa, Canada
Registered: Jul 2008
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posted 01-11-2010 11:07 AM
Also, Brand was not active-duty military (and had not been for some time). If you look at all the DOD missions, every crew member was active-duty military.I think it was also a bit of a numbers game to have veteran CDR's. The DOD payload probably just cemented the order. |
hoorenz
Member Posts: 1031
From: The Netherlands
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 01-11-2010 01:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by webhamster:
If you look at all the DOD missions, every crew member was active-duty military.
K.T. Thornton / Story Musgrave STS-33 were civilians.
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webhamster
Member Posts: 106
From: Ottawa, Canada
Registered: Jul 2008
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posted 01-11-2010 01:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by hoorenz:
K.T. Thornton / Story Musgrave STS-33 were civilians.
I stand corrected. I forgot about those two. However, the general rule was military only on DOD flights. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1505
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 01-11-2010 01:38 PM
Lacey Veach, Rick Hieb and Greg Harbaugh were also civilians who flew on a DOD mission (STS-38), although most aspects of the mission were not classified. |
Michael Cassutt
Member Posts: 358
From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 01-12-2010 11:27 PM
This story has gotten a bit muddy. I've actually spoken with Mattingly and Hartsfield in the past year, and may be able to clear things up.In reverse order, there was no official policy that "DOD" Shuttle crews had to be active duty military. Hartsfield was retired at the time of STS-4. Thornton, Musgrave and others have been noted. Four two-man crews were announced for the OFT program in March 1978 — as given. But there were two other crews in the works... an E crew of Mattingly-Hartsfield and an F crew of Weitz and likely Overmyer. No one seems to remember, since they were paper crews only, put together when the OFT program was supposed to be six missions. Mattingly had no input into the assignment of Hartsfield as his pilot — was simply called into Abbey's office and told Hank was on his crew. (He was happy with the choice.) One crew was slotted to backup both STS-2 and STS-3 from 1978 on, when STS-3 was still manifested as Haise-Lousma on Skylab rescue, though it wasn't that clear to the 3 crew. (Lousma and Fullerton were training for 3 when Mattingly and Hartsfield joined them at some facility outside JSC, and the prime crew wondered if they were being replaced....) Mattingly-Hartsfield were given the STS-2 and 3 backup job in anticipation of STS-4... partly because it was a catchall mission. (The payload had been locked in to June 1982 as early as 1979 and was not part of the original OFT manifest. As the OFT flights slipped to the right, STS-4's assignment remained fixed.) The DOD aspect did give Mattingly a slight edge over Brand or Weitz — Mattingly had been astronaut office lead for such matters. Does that help? |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1505
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 01-13-2010 09:11 AM
And of course, the change could have simply been due to the fact that George Abbey woke up one morning and decided it would be so, no rhyme, reason or explanation given. |
Tom
Member Posts: 1597
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 01-13-2010 04:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Cassutt:
Does that help?
Absolutely... thanks Michael, for the very informative explanation.
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Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member Posts: 3445
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 01-15-2010 10:48 AM
I seem to recall that if there was a need for OFT-5 and -6, that those would be flown by the crews of OFT-1 and -2, respectively. Am I imagining this?And just out of curiosity... if veteran astronauts were getting the nod for the CDR slot on the OFTs, why not Bean? |
Jay Chladek
Member Posts: 2272
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 01-15-2010 12:49 PM
By that point, Bean as I understand it was planning to leave NASA and become an artist. As such, he apparently took himself voluntarily out of the running for a shuttle CDR seat assignment. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1505
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 01-15-2010 08:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Hart Sastrowardoyo:
I seem to recall that if there was a need for OFT-5 and -6, that those would be flown by the crews of OFT-1 and -2, respectively.
I read the same thing somewhere. There were only 4 designated OFT crews originally, and if the number of flights went beyond 4, the crews would be "recycled". At some point that obviously changed, at least with the addition of Mattingly and Hartsfield. |
Michael Cassutt
Member Posts: 358
From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 01-16-2010 12:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Hart Sastrowardoyo:
I seem to recall that if there was a need for OFT-5 and -6, that those would be flown by the crews of OFT-1 and -2, respectively.
That version may have been printed somewhere, but the original scheme was to have been Crews A-F on OFT 1-6, with backups running B,E,E,F,A,B. quote:
And just out of curiosity... if veteran astronauts were getting the nod for the CDR slot on the OFTs, why not Bean?
Bean was acting chief of the astronaut office while Young was assigned to STS-1 (March 1978 to April 1981). He was widely expected to be named CDR of STS-9, but chose instead to leave NASA. |
OV-105
Member Posts: 816
From: Ridgecrest, CA
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 01-16-2010 07:11 PM
I would have thought that Bean would have got STS-7 or STS-8 since the PLT's were getting moved over to the left side by then. Also anyone know when they made the call to wear the blue flight suits since you see photos the STS-5 and STS-6 crew's in the OFT type L&E suits. The pics might have been done even before STS-1. |
Lunar Module 5
Member Posts: 370
From: Wales, UK
Registered: Dec 2004
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posted 01-22-2010 05:54 PM
I seem to remember at the time reading that Bean was possibly in-line to CDR STS-9/Spacelab 1 but that Young got it instead and probably would have done anyway even if Bean was eligible. |
Greggy_D
Member Posts: 977
From: Michigan
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted 01-22-2010 06:05 PM
quote:
Originally posted by OV-105:
Also anyone know when they made the call to wear the blue flight suits since you see photos the STS-5 and STS-6 crew's in the OFT type L&E suits.
The crew portrait of STS-5 was taken on 8/31/1982 (less than a few months before the flight). |
OV-105
Member Posts: 816
From: Ridgecrest, CA
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 01-22-2010 10:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Greggy_D:
The crew portrait of STS-5 was taken on 8/31/1982 (less than a few months before the flight).
There are solo portraits of the STS-5 and STS-6 crewmebers in the OFT style flight suits. |
328KF
Member Posts: 1234
From:
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 01-22-2010 11:30 PM
The reason for the change in the flight suit configuration on STS-5 was that there was a crew of 4, and only 2 ejection seats. As a result, the existing seats were disarmed, but the CDR and PLT still had to wear the orange David Clark pressure suit harness which interfaced with the ejection seats. So on that one flight, MS-1 and MS-2 wore the blue one-piece flight suits (not the two piece ones from the crew photo) with the new custom blue vest harness, while the two pilots wore the "hybrid" type configuration. I believe that STS-5 was the only flight flown in this manner, as STS-6, 7, and 8 were flown on Challenger which never had ejection seats installed. By the time John Young took Columbia up again on STS-9, the seats had all been removed and converted to the then-standard type of seat and all crewmembers wore the light blue one-piece coverall suit. |
OV-105
Member Posts: 816
From: Ridgecrest, CA
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 01-23-2010 12:43 AM
On STS-5 all for were in the blue fight suits. The ejection seats were not removed from Columbia until after STS-9 when she went back to Palmdale in early 1984. The seats were deactivated on STS-5 and STS-9. The crew photos for STS-5 and STS-6 the crews are wearing their inflight wear. |
Lunar Module 5
Member Posts: 370
From: Wales, UK
Registered: Dec 2004
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posted 01-23-2010 01:03 AM
Whilst on the subject of astronauts in early OFT type suits - McNair, Gregory and Bluford had a photo taken in them. I have the full 8x10 NASA picture in my collection but could only find this online. |
Jay Chladek
Member Posts: 2272
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 01-24-2010 03:49 PM
There was a crazy contingency plan being considered at the time that potentially would have had all the astronauts wearing the EES suits for ascent, and when the CDR and PLT punched out, the MSes would have tried to bail out through the openings in the flight deck. Apparently the pilot astronauts who heard about this considered it too much of a crap shoot and felt that it was better to just ride the ship in if it came to that. To my knowledge, STS-5 and 6 just had the blue suits for the pilots, not the EES suits.If you look at several of the crew portraits from that era, even many of the MSes (such as Story Musgrave) wore the EES suits in them. EDIT: Minor clarification. The suits used for the flight test program were called "Ejection Escape Suits" or EES, as opposed to LES, which were the launch escape suits employed after Challenger (eventually replaced by the "Advanced Crew Escape Suit" or ACES) |
Greggy_D
Member Posts: 977
From: Michigan
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted 01-24-2010 03:55 PM
Those pics of the veteran astronauts in the OFTs were taken in 1980 if I recall correctly. |
webhamster
Member Posts: 106
From: Ottawa, Canada
Registered: Jul 2008
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posted 01-24-2010 09:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 328KF:
So on that one flight, MS-1 and MS-2 wore the blue one-piece flight suits (not the two piece ones from the crew photo) with the new custom blue vest harness, while the two pilots wore the "hybrid" type configuration.
This photo from the STS-5 TCDT would seem to confirm what you're saying in that it shows Brand in the blue flight suit with the brown harness. |
328KF
Member Posts: 1234
From:
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 01-25-2010 01:13 AM
Thanks for finding that. It is exactly what I remember seeing on that flight. The parachute attach points were an integral part of the David Clark harness, and having them on the suit was the only way of restraining the pilot on the ejection seat.The mission specialists wore the standard vest, which essentially just held the life preservers and gave ground crews something to grab onto in a rescue of an incapacitated astronaut. The five-point seatbelt was strapped over this. |
heng44
Member Posts: 3387
From: Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 01-25-2010 02:32 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Greggy_D:
Those pics of the veteran astronauts in the OFTs were taken in 1980 if I recall correctly.
1979, to be exact.
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Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member Posts: 3445
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 10-21-2014 02:13 AM
A photo (s78-27531) dated March 22, 1978 bears the caption: These eight men have been named on four two-man crews who will fly the space shuttle orbiter vehicle during orbital flight tests (OFT) scheduled to begin in 1979. Pictured during their press conference, right to left, astronauts John W. Young, Robert L. Crippen, Joe H. Engle, Richard H. Truly, Fred W. Haise Jr., Jack R. Lousma, Vance D. Brand and C. Gordon Fullerton. Young and Crippen are commander and pilot, respectively, for the first OFT mission. Other crews are comprised of Engle, commander, and Truly, pilot; Haise, commander, and Lousma, pilot; Brand, commander, and Fullerton, pilot. Haise left and Lousma moved up to CDR, paired with Fullerton as PLT. But how did Mattingly and Hartsfield become the crew of STS-4 when Brand was the original STS-4 CDR according to this photo?Editor's note: Threads merged. |
carmelo
Member Posts: 1047
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 10-30-2014 09:20 AM
Why Alan Bean was not in the group? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 10-30-2014 09:29 AM
You asked, and the question was answered, in this thread last year. |
Tom
Member Posts: 1597
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 05-15-2016 08:39 AM
I came across a photo of the STS-4 crew taken at LC-39A with Columbia in the background. Among other KSC personnel, included in the photo are the following astronauts: - Ox Van Hoften
- Steve Hawley
- Dick Richards
- Mike Smith
- Kathy Sullivan
- Don Williams
Does anyone know what roles they had for the STS-4 flight? |
DeepSea
Member Posts: 68
From:
Registered: Jun 2014
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posted 05-16-2016 03:46 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jay Chladek:
...the MSes would have tried to bail out through the openings in the flight deck.
That was the deal with the Avro Vulcan bomber: the front-seaters could eject, and the remaining crew had to simply bail-out any way they could if possible. Very controversial, and lead to two incidents (1968 and 1975) where the pilot and co-pilot survived crashes, and the rest did not. Not particularly fair, really. |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1463
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 05-16-2016 09:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jay Chladek:
...the MSes would have tried to bail out through the openings in the flight deck.
Please show a source for that. It is not even feasible to consider since an MS was on the flight deck and would have be exposed to the ejection seat blast. And how would one climb out the top of a cockpit with no structure to climb (the seats are gone)? And if one were to make out the top of the cabin, only to slam into the vertical stabilizer. quote:
To my knowledge, STS-5 and 6 just had the blue suits for the pilots, not the EES suits.
There were no ejection seats for STS-6 since it was Challenger, hence no need to even consider EES. |
Michael Cassutt
Member Posts: 358
From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 05-22-2016 04:43 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom:
Does anyone know what roles they had for the STS-4 flight?
They were the crew support astronauts... Cape Crusaders. |
Tom
Member Posts: 1597
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 05-28-2016 06:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Cassutt:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tom:
[b]Does anyone know what roles they had for the STS-4 flight?
They were the crew support astronauts... Cape Crusaders.[/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks, Michael!
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