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Author Topic:   Pre-STS 51L space shuttle launch manifests
Ben Watson
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Posts: 24
From: Jackson, MS USA
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 02-11-2005 03:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ben Watson   Click Here to Email Ben Watson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Does anyone have or know where I can find a listing of the shuttle launch schedule (including crew members, orbiters, and payloads) for 1986 and 1987 as it stood before the Challenger accident?

MSS
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Posts: 633
From: Poland
Registered: May 2003

posted 02-11-2005 03:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MSS     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is full list at Shuttle missions that were intended to follow STS-51L.

Hart Sastrowardoyo
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Posts: 3445
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 02-12-2005 08:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hart Sastrowardoyo   Click Here to Email Hart Sastrowardoyo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Morton Thiokol also published small booklets, I think on a monthly basis — I have one from mid-1984 and mid-1985 — listing planned shuttle missions and their crews.

While they don't list payload specialists assigned — aside from Marc Garneau who is interestingly listed as a mission specialist with what became the main 51D crew in 1984 — they do offer a unique look at what could have been.

collshubby
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Posts: 591
From: Madisonville, Louisiana
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 02-12-2005 12:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for collshubby   Click Here to Email collshubby     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You can also try Encyclopedia Astronautica. They have a section called Your Flight Has Been Cancelled listing the flights.

brianjbradley
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Posts: 114
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2010

posted 09-11-2019 08:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for brianjbradley   Click Here to Email brianjbradley     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've been reading a book about the early shuttle program, and it got me wondering about the cancelled flights in 1986. I have info on missions/payloads and their flight crews, but I've been wondering what shuttles were going to fly each of the "61X/71A" designation missions (I understand the 62A/62B missions were going to be flown on Discovery).

Does anyone have this information?

Editor's note: Threads merged.

Jim Behling
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From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010

posted 09-11-2019 08:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Behling   Click Here to Email Jim Behling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wikipedia: Canceled Space Shuttle missions.

Hart Sastrowardoyo
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Posts: 3445
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 09-11-2019 08:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hart Sastrowardoyo   Click Here to Email Hart Sastrowardoyo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Space Shuttle Payload Flight Assignments, November 1985 Baseline (as of 20 Nov 85):
  • 61E - Columbia
  • 61F - Challenger
  • 61G - Atlantis
  • 61H - Columbia
  • 61M - Challenger
  • 61J - Atlantis
  • 61N - Columbia
  • 61I - Challenger
  • 61K - Atlantis
  • 61L - Columbia
  • 71B - Challenger
  • 71A - Atlantis
  • 71C - Columbia
  • 71D - Challenger
  • 71E - Atlantis
  • 71F - Columbia
  • 71G - Challenger
  • 71H - Atlantis
  • 71I - Columbia
  • 71J - Challenger
  • 71K - Atlantis
  • 71L - Columbia
  • 71M - Challenger
  • 71N - Atlantis
  • 71O - Columbia

carmelo
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Posts: 1047
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 09-13-2019 08:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for carmelo   Click Here to Email carmelo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
STS-61J would have been the last flight in space for John Young?

astro-nut
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Posts: 946
From: Washington, IL
Registered: Jan 2006

posted 10-04-2019 11:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for astro-nut   Click Here to Email astro-nut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From all my notes, I believe that STS-61J/HST mission would of have been John Young's last space flight.

I also remember hearing that Joe Engle, Gordon Fullerton, Hank Hartsfield, Bob Overmyer and Karol Bobko would have been scheduled for other flights in 1986, but not been assigned yet? (Bobko I believe was set for second flight from Vandenberg Air Force Base)?

Bob Overmyer for a DOD flight in the schedule?

Also, I asked Joe Engle when I met him if he was scheduled for a third space flight and he told me yes he was but could not remember the mission? It was a satellite deployment mission, he said, but just couldn't remember the mission number?

I think John Young would of completed his seventh mission and then maybe resign as Chief Astronaut? I remember reading an article back in 1980's that Bob Crippen was being trained to fill John's shoes as Chief Astronaut.I think after the STS-62A mission and STS-61J mission this transfer may of happened? This is all from so long ago, that I would have to dig up the articles from my files.

Hope that this information is helpful?

If any one else has additional information on the 1986 flight schedule please contribute.

carmelo
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Posts: 1047
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 10-18-2019 04:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for carmelo   Click Here to Email carmelo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Maybe the problem at that point is that John Young wanted only historically significant missions: the first Spacelab flight, the first Hubble Space Telescope missions, I think that if had looked for less monumental flights he could have flown in other two or maybe three "routine" flights between 1983 and 1986.

OV-105
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Posts: 816
From: Ridgecrest, CA
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 10-19-2019 03:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for OV-105   Click Here to Email OV-105     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When the assignment for STS-9 came there were not that many qualified Shuttle CDRs. The TFNGs had not flown yet and all of the others were assigned to flights already or leaving or on non-flight assignments (Engle).

Once the TFNG PLTs got their first flight in they got cycled into CDR spots, Hauck, Brandenstein, Shaw, Gibson. The delays from the IUS and then the TDRS problem in 1985 kept moving crews around.

ManInSpace
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Posts: 114
From: Brooklin, Ontario Canada
Registered: Feb 2018

posted 10-20-2019 12:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ManInSpace     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Young was "promoted" off flight status in April of '87. This occurred after he wrote a detailed memo criticizing NASA safety issues. Although the agency strongly denied it; there was speculation at he time that this move was in fact a punishment and ensured that he would not be flying the Hubble flight. Prior to this there had been reports that this flight would be his final mission.

I would be interested in hearing from other members whether or not this scenario is true.

issman1
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Posts: 1042
From: UK
Registered: Apr 2005

posted 10-20-2019 01:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for issman1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Many years ago I read the book "Challenger: A Major Malfunction" by Malcolm McConnell which thoroughly scrutinised the accident.

It showed how John Young had become increasingly concerned with the decision-making for the launches of two shuttle missions in particular, STS-51D and STS-51I, where the weather was considered fairly marginal for an RTLS Abort.

After Challenger he wrote that infamous 1987 memo that led to him being replaced by Dan Brandenstein as Chief Astronaut. It suggests some NASA senior management and even fellow astronauts were hoping Young would leave NASA. But as a result he lost command of the HST deploy mission.

Michael Cassutt
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Posts: 358
From: Studio City CA USA
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 10-21-2019 12:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael Cassutt   Click Here to Email Michael Cassutt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ManInSpace:
I would be interested in hearing from other members whether or not this scenario is true.
Not quite. Young's leaked memos were in early 1986. If someone wanted to punish him, it would have happened before April 1987. Besides, his memos had gone everywhere in JSC and could have been leaked by any one of a dozen people.

Further, Young was a notorious and persistent internal critic. The 1986 memos were just one in a series of such documents. Deke Slayton and Young used to have loud arguments... there were other people in JSC who had similar experiences.

And yet, Young's POV and engineering talents were greatly respected, even by people who got annoyed with him.

What happened was that Aaron Cohen became the new head of JSC in the fall of 1986, and empowered by HQ spaceflight head Richard Truly, began to rearrange JSC leadership so that his direct reports were his choices. (I think I'm safe in saying that Cohen thought Young had been in his position for too long.)

He ordered George Abbey to move Young out of the chief astronaut job in April 1987, then transferred Abbey himself a few months later.

Those were the motives, not punishment for a leak.

ManInSpace
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Posts: 114
From: Brooklin, Ontario Canada
Registered: Feb 2018

posted 10-21-2019 02:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ManInSpace     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you Michael and issman1 for taking the time to respond.

The Young story has been around a long time and I appreciate the new information.

issman1
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Posts: 1042
From: UK
Registered: Apr 2005

posted 10-21-2019 03:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for issman1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The question of whether Young jockeyed for command of notable shuttle missions in the early 1980s is subjective.

But losing the commander's seat of the STS-61J mission -- which eventually flew as STS-31 -- must have been deflating for him. It couldn't be age as Vance Brand was commander of STS-35 at 59.

Skylon
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Posts: 274
From:
Registered: Sep 2010

posted 10-22-2019 10:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Skylon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Cassutt:
Further, Young was a notorious and persistent internal critic.
It always sounded to me that it wasn't simply Young's criticisms that got him in trouble, but the format of the memos. That rather than just bring issues up in the various meetings and hashing it out with the parties involved he would just send those memos out broadcasting these concerns to multiple parties.

I certainly have mixed thoughts about it. I can understand Young's viewpoint, but it would certainly annoy people to deal with that format of bringing up grievances on a regular basis.

astro-nut
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Posts: 946
From: Washington, IL
Registered: Jan 2006

posted 10-28-2019 12:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for astro-nut   Click Here to Email astro-nut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I remember reading that Alan Bean was at one time slotted for command of STS-9/Spacelab-1 flight. Since he retired I believe John Young filled in for him and got the flight. I also asked Jon McBride if he was scheduled to fly after the Astro-1 flight and he told me that he was scheduled to fly the Astro-1 and Astro-2 missions.

So if the Challenger tragedy didn't occur, I think we would of have seen a lot of senior astronauts make their third, fourth, fifth and even seventh spaceflights!

It would of been interesting to see what the launch rate would of have been for 1986 if Challenger didn't occur? I think NASA could of have gotten 10 flights launched but not 14.

Tom
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Posts: 1597
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 10-28-2019 07:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom   Click Here to Email Tom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
NASA came very close to launching 10 shuttle missions in 1985. STS-61C was scheduled to launch in December but was postponed (I believe twice) that month to January.

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