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Author
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Topic: Space heroes versus space passengers
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yeknom-ecaps
Member Posts: 660
From: Northville MI USA
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 07-13-2011 09:50 AM
   
A thought from this morning's drive to work... at what point in time do space travelers become "regular" people instead of "heroes" or "risk takers"?Airplane pilots are a good example - the very first pilots obviously were taking great risks but today being a pilot is "just" another profession to choose from. At what point did that happen? Certainly there are still test pilots that take greater risks than "regular" pilots. Many of us collect autographs of those that have traveled into space. At what point do you say I don't need that persons autograph in my collection. Will the number of people taken into space aboard SpaceShipTwo be the "end" of collecting/identifying EVERYONE that has gone into space? We love lists showing the crews of the flights into space - when do we stop documenting the flights and crews? Thoughts? |
Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member Posts: 3445
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 07-13-2011 10:11 AM
There will always be those who seek the "space passengers" autographs - granted, the Titanic sank, but I am still amazed at those who collected the autograph of Millvina Dean, who was only a few weeks old at that time....I know it's a fine line differentiating between those passengers, payload specialists and now spaceflight participants. But the first flight of SpaceShipTwo (or VSS Enterprise, or whatever), on which spaceflight really does become commercial, in the sense of a vehicle designed to routinely take paying passengers, will be my end of collecting the autographs of space travelers. However: Should those "passengers" fly Dragon, or Soyuz, then I would add them. |
bwhite1976
Member Posts: 281
From: Belleville, IL
Registered: Jun 2011
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posted 07-13-2011 12:10 PM
With the overly confident projections of the number of shuttle flights, and the claim that the shuttle would be as routine as a connecting flight out of St. Louis by the mid 80's, I am wondering if collectors thirty years ago were having the same thoughts. My point is who knows what the future is going to hold. |
MrSpace86
Member Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 07-13-2011 12:13 PM
I have Mike Melvill and Brian Binnie's autographs in my collection due to the historical nature of their aerospace flight. Do I consider their flights to be spaceflight? Not really. Will I ever consider a SpaceShipTwo flight as a spaceflight? NEVER. I think it's great that people will be able to go to the edge of space and risk their lives onboard a vehicle that is made of cloth, glue, and plastic and can melt in just a matter of seconds when the feather doesn't open, doesn't have a real heatshield, and doesn't even the capacity to stay in orbit, but I call their claim of a spaceflight the equivalent of me running into the field during the Super Bowl and claiming I played in the Super Bowl and helped team X win the title. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 07-13-2011 12:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MrSpace86:
I think it's great that people will be able to... risk their lives onboard a vehicle that is made of cloth, glue...
So extending your line of reasoning, the Wright Flyer never made a real airflight because it wasn't made out of aircraft-grade aluminum, it was missing deployable landing gear and other modern aircraft parts and didn't have the capability to stay aloft. Interesting. |
cspg
Member Posts: 6210
From: Geneva, Switzerland
Registered: May 2006
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posted 07-13-2011 02:27 PM
Does someone need to risk his/her life to be heroic? I don't think so. |
MrSpace86
Member Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 07-13-2011 05:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
So extending your line of reasoning, the Wright Flyer never made a real airflight...
My line of reasoning was more of the lack of safety that vehicle has. It's made out of composite materials which shatter when impacted by something traveling at high speeds and does not have very high resistance to heat. I am unsure if most people know the structural, temperature, and stress limits that kind of material has. As for the Wright Flyer, it did stay aloft for over 800 feet in almost a minute  Regardless, I wouldn't consider the Wright Flyer a commercial airliner; an aircraft yes. SpaceShipTwo: a true spacecraft, no; a winged aerospace vehicle, yes. Do spacecraft fall into the "winged aerospace vehicle" category? Of course they do. But I would rather be broad than to sell that vehicle as a true spacecraft. But that is just my opinion! I really could not call the passengers travelling in these machines as heroes. And I agree, not everyone that risks their life is a hero. I believe it's all a matter of innovation and making the world a better place.
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yeknom-ecaps
Member Posts: 660
From: Northville MI USA
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 07-13-2011 06:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MrSpace86:
Will I ever consider a SpaceShipTwo flight as a spaceflight? NEVER... Regardless, I wouldn't consider the Wright Flyer a commercial airliner; an aircraft yes. SpaceShipTwo: a true spacecraft, no; a winged aerospace vehicle, yes.
What about pilots of the X-15 winged aerospace vehicle? Would take your statement to imply that the X-15 was not a spacecraft but it did create astronauts.Similar to a passenger/pilot of a SpaceShipTwo like craft flying suborbitally into space. Even though the X-15 flew into space - but could not go into orbit - pilots that flew it into space became astronauts - according to the "space" height requirement so wouldn't these SS2 like craft pilot/passengers also be astronauts. If no, as they reached the altitude to be in "space" how would you differentiate them from X-15 astronauts? |
Greggy_D
Member Posts: 977
From: Michigan
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted 07-13-2011 07:06 PM
I remember this quote bothering me way back when I heard it live in 1998 while watching the STS-95 launch:"Liftoff of Discovery with a crew of six astronaut heroes and one American legend!" What exactly did the 6 "heroes" accomplish at that point in time? What made them a hero? I would argue brave and gutsy.....yes. But, not heroes. |
yeknom-ecaps
Member Posts: 660
From: Northville MI USA
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 07-13-2011 07:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Greggy_D:
I would argue brave and gutsy... yes. But, not heroes.
Agree... so just like the first airplane pilots were brave and gutsy but being a pilot today is "another job" that is not brave and gutsy when do you think astronauts become "passengers" because being in space is not so brave and gutsy? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 07-13-2011 07:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Greggy_D:
What exactly did the 6 "heroes" accomplish at that point in time?
So by that, am I correct you do not consider the STS-51L crew heroes? Because it is not heroic to die. If they are heroes, it is for something they did before they were lost... |
MrSpace86
Member Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 07-13-2011 07:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by yeknom-ecaps:
What about pilots of the X-15 winged aerospace vehicle? Would take your statement to imply that the X-15 was not a spacecraft but it did create astronauts.
Again, that depends on who you talk to and what rules you would like to follow. The X-15 pilots crossed the 50 mile mark which, at the time, was considered space. Only Joe Walker crossed the 62 mile mark which was then considered space (SpaceShipOne and SpaceShipTwo follow these rules established by the FAA). I believe a few years ago, Canadian scientists declared that they believed space began at the 73 mile mark. 50, 62, 73, 76 (NASA uses this I think for the Space Shuttle)... take your pick.By the way, if everyone traveling above 50 miles will be considered astronauts, will they all receive wings too to make it official? Or should new rules be written? |
MrSpace86
Member Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 07-13-2011 07:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
If they are heroes, it is for something they did before they were lost...
Most (if not all) NASA astronauts served the country in some shape or form with the military. The others that didn't still serve their country as US astronauts; they serve the nation's space program and risk their lives to do so. Essentially, the other six astronaut heroes may merit such title along with the American legend. |
Greggy_D
Member Posts: 977
From: Michigan
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted 07-13-2011 09:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
So by that, am I correct you do not consider the STS-51L crew heroes? Because it is not heroic to die.
Sorry, but no they not heroes in my opinion. People die everyday in unfortunate accidents beyond their control.I offer this opinion. If Orville had died that day way back on 17 December 1903, would I consider him a hero. Yes, by all means because he was the initial trailblazer. Now fast forward to this year, 24 June 2011. A small plane crashed in the northern part of Michigan, killing two parents. Are they heroes? They would have perished the same way that Orville would have (hypothetically). No, I do not consider the parents heroes, since flight has become commonplace. Back on 28 January 1986, spaceflight WAS considered commonplace whether we would like to admit it or not. |
Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member Posts: 3445
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 07-14-2011 07:40 AM
One more on this thread, at the risk of alienating people: Just because your job involves a risk of dying does not make you automatically a hero. In other words, dying in the line of duty? Not a hero. But the way you die can be described as heroic, if the actions undertaken are extraordinary or unique. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2454
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 07-14-2011 10:51 AM
I tend to agree with the last post. Surely, like beauty, heroism is in the eye of the beholder. One man's hero may be another man's fool.To give an example - some consider Capt. Scott's death heroic. Others would say it was the result of poor planning and taking unnecessary risks. It depends on a personal interpretation of the historical record. |
Tykeanaut
Member Posts: 2212
From: Worcestershire, England, UK.
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 07-14-2011 10:59 AM
Are we confusing the word heroes with daring and brave perhaps? |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 07-14-2011 11:05 AM
Now if someone were to write about the Apollo program while on-board Spaceship2 flying over 62 miles high, could they rightfully be called a heroic astronaut space historian? Just curious... |
Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member Posts: 3445
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 07-14-2011 11:25 AM
And... if said writing were to be vetted by the space community, found to be accurate or at least withstand scrutiny, and then published, and that someone were to go on a book-signing tour, would you collect their autograph? |
Steve Procter
Member Posts: 1031
From: Leeds, Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 07-14-2011 11:43 AM
There are a few collectors around who have attempted to collect signed material from all spacefarers to date. There are (as far as I know) probably less than a handful who have succeeded.Sooner or later however this will become an impossibility as the day will come when people will fly into space and we will have no idea of their names. No press kits, no mission patches and photos
just an anonymous member of the public launching and returning with no press coverage and no fuss. I think in many ways the 'golden age' of collecting is behind us. Thoughts? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 07-14-2011 12:48 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Tykeanaut:
Are we confusing the word heroes with daring and brave perhaps?
The dictionary defines "hero" several ways, but here's one of the simplest from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary for Students: a person admired for achievements and qualities To me that seems to be inclusive of the shuttle astronauts (if not also all, then most who have entered space to date, regardless the spacecraft). |
yeknom-ecaps
Member Posts: 660
From: Northville MI USA
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 07-14-2011 12:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Procter:
I think in many ways the 'golden age' of collecting is behind us. Thoughts?
Steve - agree with you about the 'golden age'. You clearly articulated the question I was really asking when I started this thread which is when do we think this will happen (e.g. soon with SS2 flights not publicly listing names?). |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2454
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 07-14-2011 01:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
The dictionary defines "hero" several ways, but here's one of the simplest...
You have been very selective in your dictionary definition Robert. Mine defines a hero as - A person, typically a man, who is admired for their courage or outstanding achievements. Might I venture to suggest that not all shuttle astronauts meet this criteria. How many of them would claim that riding the shuttle was 'courageous' or 'outstanding'? Heroes to you maybe. To others, maybe not. Which was the point of my previous post. Heroism is in the eye of the beholder. |
MrSpace86
Member Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 07-14-2011 01:11 PM
In comic books, there is a golden age, silver age, bronze age, and modern age. Golden age tends to be from the 1930s down to the end of World War II while Silver Age picks up from there and lasts till about the 1960s. From there, the Bronze Age to about the mid 1980s and then we have the modern age. If you would like to classify spaceflight as such, here is how I would do it: Golden Age: Mercury/Vostok, Gemini/Voskhod, Apollo/early Soyuz
Silver Age: Skylab/Salyut, ASTP
Bronze Age: Space Shuttle, Mir, Soyuz TM
Modern Age: ISS, Soyuz TMA, Shenzhou, Virgin Galactic, SpaceX I believe that anyone in the Golden Age would be definitely be heroes. Once you step into the Silver and Bronze age, it is really a matter of opinion as the notion of "been there, done that" settles in. Modern Age is when you would have to start being selective about autograph and memorabilia collecting. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 07-14-2011 01:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by moorouge:
Heroism is in the eye of the beholder.
I agree, which is why I suggest that the STS-95 launch call was not inappropriate. Discovery's crew members were heroes... to someone. |
Lou Chinal
Member Posts: 1306
From: Staten Island, NY
Registered: Jun 2007
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posted 07-14-2011 04:17 PM
I'll always consider Deke Slayton a HERO of the 'Golden Age'. |
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