Posts: 1368
From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
Registered: May 2001

Posts: 34
From: Belmont, NC USA
Registered: May 2001

posted 11-28-2001 08:57 AM               

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I know that they carried the designations even without the LM. I met Walt Cunningham once and he corrected me on his designation during Apollo 7 - alas I cannot remember for certain what the correct designation was, and I am at work and cannot check my notes. I certainly may be incorrect, but it seems to me that he was the LMP.

Anyone else know for sure?

Posts: 150
From: Glens Falls, NY 12801
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 11-28-2001 09:24 AM               

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Walt Cunningham was indeed designated Lunar Module Pilot for Apollo 7. He once mentioned to me, and this is a paraphrase, but close, "There I was, a Lunar Module Pilot with no Lunar Module, and not much to do except fight a cold.

Not long ago I sent him an RCA sheet with all the shoulder patches A-7 through A-14 reproduced and ask that he sign. I requested nothing else, left things up to him. It came back, "Walt Cunningham LMP APOLLO 7".

All the best,

Doc

Posts: 2176
From: West Jordan, Utah USA
Registered: Dec 1999

Posts: 1368
From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
Registered: May 2001

posted 11-29-2001 12:45 PM               

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Thanks for answering that. I wonder what they'd have called the Apollo 7 LEM if they'd had one.
Speaking of Apollo 7 I'm curious about why none of the crew flew again; did none of them elect to re-enter the rotation or were they side-lined?
Matt

[This message has been edited by Matt T (edited November 29, 2001).]

Posts: 172
From: Terrigal NSW Australia
Registered: Jun 2000

Posts: 1405
From: Huntington Beach
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 11-29-2001 01:02 PM               

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I understand that Schirra declared before liftoff it would be his last flight.

The other two were wrapped up in the controversy of the crew choosing to not deviate from the flight plan, and refusing to wear their helmets for splashdown. They had headcolds and thought that sinus equalization posed a greater risk than cabin depressurization.

NASA seems to have disagreed.

At least, that is my take.

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Warm Regards

Douglas Henry

Enjoy yourself and have fun.... it is only a hobby!

Posts: 594
From: Orting, WA
Registered: May 2000

posted 11-29-2001 03:47 PM               

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Hello
I just finished reading The All American Boys last night. Walt Cunningham addresses not flying again. He stated a few times that his thought it was because of Wally Schirra's attitude. After the flight he went back and apologized to the flight controllers. Wally had in fact stated that Apollo 7 would be his last flight before lift-off. Donn Eisele was on back up crew for Apollo 10 and Walt Cunningham was assigned as head of Skylab shortly after coming back. Walt left NASA after Pete Conrad replaced him as head of Skylab, when he realized that he wasn't going to get another space flight. You should read the book, in my opinion is the best of the astronaut books that I have read so far.

Charles

Posts: 227
From: Florida
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 12-01-2001 02:03 AM               

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The reason that Walt Cunningham never flew in space again was Dr. Christopher Kraft. He was quoted as saying: "the only way that Son of a b_T_H was going to fly in space again, would be over my dead body."
I have seen a program where Dr.Kraft confirmed making that statement. I believe it was in "Moon Shot." Why?
Sure there some disagreements between the crew and Mission Control over some additional unplanned expiraments, and the fact that they opted to re-enter without their helments. A decision that did not cause any problems; except for the ruffled feathers of one Dr. Christopher Kraft. I think it is sad that this one man was able to essentially kill the carrer of one fine astronaut. I am not saying that he was, or would have been the best astronaut that NASA ever produced. But, he got the job done. Project Apollo went on to land on the Moon. Walt Cunningham was a big part of that effort.
I do think that had Walt Cunningham got the proper chance to fly in space again, he might be more well known, and perhaps, more appriciated. I know that Dr. Kraft has contributed much to mans exploration of space. But, in my opinion, he was wrong to black ball the crew of Apollo 7.
I do not think that it was deserved. He has never apologized for it, as far as I know. He actually seems proud of himself for it. And, he has diminished himself in my estimation of him, for having done it.

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" I collect space, in order to fill the space between my ears."
ME

Posts: 809
From: Cortlandt Manor, NY
Registered: May 2000

posted 12-01-2001 07:53 AM               

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By all accounts, including Wally Schirra's, the 18 month preparation for Apollo 7 was less than carefree. Following the Fire, the need for restoring the program and nailing a perfect mission had to have been intense. Schirra's basic statement in his book is "I resolved that the mission would not be jeopadized by the influence of special interests -- scientific, political, whatever. ... I would not be an affable fellow when it came to decisions that affected the safety of myself and my two mates. ... My decision to quit made it easier to say I didn't give a damn. I wasn't so susceptible to criticism. I cared not a whit about being in the good graces of the support folks, including the hierarchy." While this attitude and approach is in many ways understandable, just about every account annoyed the living hell out of many around Houston and Kennedy. As Deke Slayton wrote in commenting on Sam Phillips statement that Apollo 7 accomplished 101 percent of its goals -- "technically true. But it wasn't easy." Accordingly, the problems went well beyond one or two disputes during the mission. although even the air-to-ground problems would raise concerns.

As most of recognized, including Chris Kraft, both Cunningham and Eisele were caught in a rock and a hard place. Neither was going to mutiny against their commander and neither had enough pull (2 rookies against one of the originals) to help offset and resolve the bigger problems. My recollection (still trying to get purchase a copy of All American Boys) is that Walt Cunningham did act as a buffer a number of times with reasonble success but even by his own words, Wally Schirra seems to have been the 900 pound gorilla.
Kraft points out in his book that the question for him was an issue of leadership. Having now flown, Cunningham & Eisele would be in a position of command for any subsequent mission. But how would the critical element of trust between Mission COntrol and the mission exist when you are dealing with someone who supported, even tacitly, insubordination and where their prior mission had a number of open disputes with Houston. Cunningham's and Eisele's actions during the preparation for and flight of Apollo 7 obviously had raised questions in certain minds about their judgment and ability to make decisions. While the assessment might not be valid, the preception would taint. From a flight control perspective, particularly with the large pool of astronauts available, I can understand looking to others who demonstrate a trust in your decisions.

Did Walt Cunningham get a raw deal, absolutely. Was it meritless or an issue of "ruffled feathers," no. The hierarchy existed to make decision. Some were bad, most were good and it is their job to make the judgment calls. Given the circumstances, Kraft's decision is decidedly supportable.

Posts: 227
From: Florida
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 12-01-2001 05:17 PM               

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Thank you for your well written, well thought out responce to my post. It is indeed a pleasure to be able to discus sensitive issues like this in a civilized and decent mannor. There is far too much mud slinging, and rancor on this board that I almost dispared of it, and gave up.
I do however respectfully disagree. I do believe that Dr. Kraft over reacted, and too an exstent was a little vindictive. This does not cancel the tremendous good that he did for his country. I do see it as a black eye. And I belive he was wrong to do so. Good people can disagree on this. I do think that Walt Cunningham has unfairly passed over for what would have been his first command.

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" I collect space, in order to fill the space between my ears."
ME

Posts: 1368
From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
Registered: May 2001

posted 12-01-2001 05:51 PM               

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The issue of crew flexibility during the flight is a particularly important one given that the rotation system (as I understand it) would have placed Eisele or possibly Cunningham in command of Apollo 13...

Even so I've got to agree with Ed; from the facts given here it seems harsh that Cunningham and Eisele were treated as they were. It suggests that when Cunningham was given the Skylab job there was never any intention of letting him actually fly a mission. It's a pretty shabby way of treating someone to my mind.

Cheers,
Matt

Posts: 809
From: Cortlandt Manor, NY
Registered: May 2000

posted 12-02-2001 07:04 AM               

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It is unlikely that either Cunningham or Eisele would have commanded any of the subsequent Apollo mission. Although the crew assignment system continues to be a fun source of debate, I cannot envision either gentleman beating out Lovell, Shepard, Scott, Young, Cernan or Gordan (planned for 18) for the lead spot. Each of these mission commanders had more experience and more support from the powers that be. As Walt Cunningham explains in his book, NASA power plays and politics probably cost him one of the commands for Skylab (if not the command of the first mission). That, however, had little if anything do to with Apollo 7. Either Cunningham or Eisele could have ended up as LMP or CMP for a mission, but command appears a near impossibility.

On a pure tea leaves level, I suspect that Walt Cunningham would have flown again if he had stuck with the program. Both he and Kraft noted that they spoke about the impact of Apollo 7 after the mission and Kraft was both upfront about the matter (an unusual characteristic in a boss) and that Cunningham could prove him wrong. I have not met either gentleman, simply read each's autobiography, but I suspect that Walt Cunningham's dedication and work on the Skylab program would have earned him another mission (although perhaps not until the shuttle after Pete Conrad stepped in) and I do not envision Chris Kraft holding a grudge on the matter. The reality was that for seven years we only put 12 men back into orbit and the number of candidates far exceeded the slots on Skylab or ASTP. From the first three groups, only John Young stayed to fly again. In the early 70s, many faced career decisions and I suspect that after the long hours of training and long separation from family, a shift into industry, government or back into the military had far greater appeal then waiting 5 to 10 years for the shuttle program to develop.

Posts: 385
From: the Netherlands
Registered: Aug 2000