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Author
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Topic: Mercury, Gemini and Apollo crew positions
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RichieB16
Member Posts: 629
From: Oregon
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 02-15-2015 09:07 AM
   
So, I'm trying to understand the exact official title of each crew position on manned NASA flights prior to the space shuttle. Here is what I have... please tell me if this is correct and if not please correct me. |
star51L
Member Posts: 523
From: Vilano Beach, FL, USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 02-15-2015 10:36 AM
Have no reason to doubt the accuracy, but Spacefacts.de has diagrammed the Science Pilot in the center seat for all three Skylab missions. |
RichieB16
Member Posts: 629
From: Oregon
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 02-15-2015 11:46 AM
You are right. I wonder why the "capsule pilot" was moved from the middle couch to the right side for Skylab?
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star51L
Member Posts: 523
From: Vilano Beach, FL, USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 02-15-2015 04:07 PM
No idea, but I wonder why they didn't just refer to the LMP pilots on 7 and 8 as navigator or something a bit more appropriate for their tasks, or simply refer to them as "pilot". |
RichieB16
Member Posts: 629
From: Oregon
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 02-16-2015 11:23 AM
I would have thought they would have stuck with the Block I crew positions: Command PIlot, Senior Pilot, and Pilot... but all my research says they did not.Outside of my mistake on crew seating positions in Skylab... does everything else look correct? |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3842
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 02-16-2015 12:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by star51L:
the Science Pilot in the center seat for all three Skylab missions.
In the suiting-up room on launch day, the CMP occupied the center chair, except during Skylab. The SP was in the center chair for the Skylab missions. |
SaturnV
Member Posts: 24
From: Fowler, Ohio, USA
Registered: Sep 2013
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posted 02-23-2015 09:38 AM
quote:
Originally posted by star51L:
No idea, but I wonder why they didn't just refer to the LMP pilots on 7 and 8 as navigator or something a bit more appropriate for their tasks, or simply refer to them as "pilot".
I have read somewhere that since the crew were all pilots, they wanted "pilot" in the name designation. Thus "navigator" or "engineer" didnt quite cut it. Dont know how true this is but I read it somewhere. |
onesmallstep
Member Posts: 1427
From: Staten Island, New York USA
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 02-23-2015 03:12 PM
I believe the center seat position on Apollo 11 was occupied by the LMP at launch. Per a pre-flight news conference by the Apollo 11 crew, Mike Collins corrected a misconception of his position as the 'center-seat man.'Aldrin had trained for the center seat before his selection for 11 (Apollo 8 backup), so it made little sense for him to re-train to occupy the right-hand seat. So it was the right-hand seat at launch for Collins, left-hand seat for him during burns, re-entry and other mission events. As for the CMP switching seats for the Skylab missions; perhaps it was related to a redesign of the SM and CM switches to accommodate storage batteries and cryo tanks in place of fuel cells on the long-duration Skylab flights? |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3842
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-11-2016 02:43 PM
quote:
Originally posted by star51L:
Have no reason to doubt the accuracy, but Spacefacts.de has diagrammed the Science Pilot in the center seat for all three Skylab missions.
The CM couch positions for Skylab are described in the Flight Plan. spacefacts.de has the crew names in the correct couch positions, but their acronyms (CDR-PLT-CMP) differ from the Flight Plan (CDR-SPT-PLT). |
Lou Chinal
Member Posts: 1387
From: Staten Island, NY
Registered: Jun 2007
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posted 03-11-2016 02:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by onesmallstep:
I believe the center seat position on Apollo 11 was occupied by the LMP at launch.
I have to agree, Aldrin told me he was in the center seat for launch. |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1849
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 03-12-2016 06:20 AM
quote:
Originally posted by onesmallstep:
As for the CMP switching seats for the Skylab missions; perhaps it was related to a redesign of the SM and CM switches to accommodate storage batteries and cryo tanks in place of fuel cells on the long-duration Skylab flights?
The Skylab CSMs still had fuel cells that used cryos. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3842
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-12-2016 10:51 AM
The Apollo 7 schedule has the CDR in the left seat position for launch, entry and SPS burns 1, 2, 5 and 8. The CMP is in the left seat position for SPS burns 3 and 6. The LMP is in the left seat position for SPS burns 4 and 7. The CDR is in the right seat position for burns 3 and 6. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3842
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-13-2016 12:35 AM
The Flight Plan for ASTP has these crew designations: - AC - Apollo Commander (Stafford)
- CP - Command Module Pilot (Brand)
- DP - Docking Module Pilot (Slayton)
- SC - Soyuz Commander (Leonov)
- FE - Flight Engineer (Kubasov)
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Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3632
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 03-13-2016 03:31 PM
That suggests the Russians didn't have the same hang-up about being called an "engineer" rather than a "pilot." |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2486
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 03-13-2016 04:28 PM
Might that be because the Russians relied much more on automatic systems than the Americans? |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3842
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-13-2016 07:17 PM
I see that spacefacts.de has updated the crew designations on their Skylab pages to match the Flight Plan. |
Jim_Voce
Member Posts: 275
From:
Registered: Jul 2016
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posted 02-13-2017 02:36 AM
The crew seating order in the CSM during the Apollo lunar missions was: - Commander - left couch
- Command Module Pilot - center couch
- Lunar Module Pilot - right couch
And on Apollo-Soyuz, the seating order was the same: - Commander - left couch
- Command Module Pilot - center couch
- Docking Module Pilot - right couch
But on Skylab it was different: - Commander - left couch
- Science Pilot - center couch
- Pilot - right couch
The importance of the center couch is that during launch, the astronaut in the center couch was expected to know flight abort procedures. Were the Science Pilots trained in abort procedures?Would it not have made more sense to have the crew order on Skylab as follows? - Commander
- Command Module Pilot
- Science Pilot
Editor's note: Threads merged. |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1849
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 02-13-2017 08:33 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jim_Voce:
Were the Science Pilots trained in abort procedures?
Yes, they were just as qualified any other astronauts. They were not like shuttle payload specialists but full fledged astronauts. They were like shuttle missions specialists. |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1849
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 02-13-2017 09:38 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Blackarrow:
That suggests the Russians didn't have the same hang-up about being called an "engineer" rather than a "pilot."
No that isn't it. It is because the commander was a pilot that came from the air force and the flight engineer was an engineer from OBK/Energia. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 51242
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-16-2017 01:51 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jim_Voce:
The importance of the center couch is that during launch, the astronaut in the center couch was expected to know flight abort procedures.
I reached out to Ed Gibson (science pilot on Skylab 4) to see what he recalled about the seating and crew positions. He asked that I preface his reply with a reminder that this was 47 years ago and so it is based on what he remembers. I believe that the person in the right seat had control over the electrical power and several other important complex systems that required rigorous and time-consuming training, even more so than for the person in the center seat. Obviously the person in the left seat had the most difficult job before and during the mission.
Also, the question must also be viewed in the context of the Skylab missions' broad scope, which included initiating and manning our nation's first space station and all of its many diverse experiments that consumed the great majority of time during each mission. The Science Pilot had the greatest responsibility for the training and in flight performance. I believe this overriding consideration made the crew configuration what it was. This Space Station consideration also dictated the naming if the crew positions.
Thus, the person in the center seat had the smaller job, although highly important, in terms of training time required.
Of course, the above considerations are all my guess work compared to the mulling that went on in the minds of Deke and Al. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3842
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 10-20-2023 04:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by LM-12:
The Apollo 7 schedule ...
Here are all the different seat positions for Apollo 7, including the SPS burns: (Left, Center, Right)
- launch: CDR, CMP, LMP
- burn 1: CDR, CMP, LMP
- burn 2: CDR, CMP, LMP
- burn 3: CMP, LMP, CDR
- burn 4: LMP, CDR, CMP
- burn 5: CDR, CMP, LMP
- burn 6: CMP, LMP, CDR
- burn 7: LMP, CDR, CMP
- burn 8: CDR, CMP, LMP
- entry: CDR, CMP, LMP
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LM-12
Member Posts: 3842
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 10-21-2023 09:54 AM
The Skylab Flight Plan has these crew designations for the Skylab 3 and Skylab 4 missions (the backup crew is in brackets): - Skylab 3
CDR: Bean (Brand)
SPT: Garriott (Lind)
PLT: Lousma (Lenoir) - Skylab 4
CDR: Carr (Brand)
SPT: Gibson (Lind)
PLT: Pogue (Lenoir)
The Lind and Lenoir positions are not correct. Lind was the backup pilot, and Lenoir was the backup science pilot. |
ashot
Member Posts: 78
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 10-23-2023 09:41 AM
I do not exclude that another good reason for putting the Skylab pilot in the right seat could have been the rescue mission consideration, as to have a proper balance for two-person crew the center seat should stay unoccupied. (Otherwise additional weights need to be placed to counter-balance the missing crewmember on the right -- not a good idea, especially when one needs to then bring back five persons.) The rescue mission would had been flown by the commander and pilot only, so it seemed more wise to train those two for left and right seats accordingly from the very beginning (and to have all launch procedures adapted to that seat arrangement right away). |
ashot
Member Posts: 78
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 10-23-2023 10:03 AM
An interesting observation: as it is known, in Moon landing missions Apollo commander would swap seats with the command module pilot at landing, while LMP would still stay in his right seat. Apollo 11 is unique, as this is the only flight when ALL crewmembers swapped seats for landing. |
Axman
Member Posts: 226
From: Derbyshire UK
Registered: Mar 2023
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posted 10-23-2023 10:36 AM
I've read, in various formats, countless times, that the seats for astronauts were contoured to their individual dimensions. So: - Is that nonsense?
- If correct, why would you swap seats?
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ashot
Member Posts: 78
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 10-23-2023 11:10 AM
Seats are indeed made "contoured" for all Soviet/Russian spacecraft. Swapping a seat there is just exchanging the "contour" part of it. This was done countless times by Soviets/Russians since 1978 (Soyuz-26/27), when the crew's launch and landing spacecraft were different.For Apollo, flying the spacecraft was more convenient to be made from the left seat (instruments and windows). For launch the "flying" was by the commander, but for landing it was command module pilots' job. So, with a very few exclusions (Apollo 7, 8, and 9, I think) command module pilot would be in the left seat at landing (with the commander in the middle). Also, swapping seats became a regular practice for the shuttle crews. In most missions, the mission specialists occupying the right flight deck and left middeck seats (usually, MS1 and MS3) would swap their seats at launch and landing, accordingly. As none of the mission specialists in those seats was involved in any launch or landing operations (unlike the flight deck center seater), this swap seemed to be just for giving mission specialists flight deck experience (or should I say "flight deck riding fun"?). |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3842
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 10-23-2023 11:39 AM
quote:
Originally posted by ashot:
So, with a very few exclusions (Apollo 7, 8, and 9, I think) command module pilot would be in the left seat at landing (with the commander in the middle).
For Skylab, the commander was in the left seat for entry and splashdown. For ASTP, it was Vance Brand. |
ashot
Member Posts: 78
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 10-23-2023 12:04 PM
True, but Skylab (unlike Apollo and ASTP) didn't formally have command module pilot per se and I am not sure the pilot was doing a lot of flying of CSM at all. What is interesting, is how the CMP "flew" the CM from the center seat on Apollo 7-9. Seems that commanders in those missions were involved in the re-entries/splashdowns more heavily, than their colleagues on Apollo 10-17 and ASTP... |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1849
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 10-23-2023 12:25 PM
For missions without a LM, the commander flew the CSM. The command module pilots were not hands on. |
ashot
Member Posts: 78
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 10-23-2023 12:31 PM
Strangely, this was still the case for Apollo 9 (which did have a LM). The command module pilot landing in the left seat seems to have started on Apollo 10. |
Axman
Member Posts: 226
From: Derbyshire UK
Registered: Mar 2023
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posted 10-23-2023 12:40 PM
So do you mean, when they "swap seats", they not only change position, e.g. from right to left, but that they also physically swap a contoured top part too!!? |
ashot
Member Posts: 78
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 10-23-2023 12:50 PM
The answer is "yes" for Soviets and Russians — i.e. each cosmonaut flies in his/her own contoured seat. So, if he or she needs to change the spacecraft in orbit, the seat is physically moved/replaced accordingly. |
Axman
Member Posts: 226
From: Derbyshire UK
Registered: Mar 2023
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posted 10-23-2023 12:59 PM
And was that the same on the Apollo flights? |
ashot
Member Posts: 78
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 10-23-2023 01:08 PM
My understanding is that Apollo did not use individually contoured couches. |
Axman
Member Posts: 226
From: Derbyshire UK
Registered: Mar 2023
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posted 10-23-2023 01:15 PM
Thank you. I'm more fully informed now. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3842
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 10-23-2023 02:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ashot:
Strangely, this was still the case for Apollo 9 (which did have a LM).
The flight plan for Apollo 9 indicates that the command module pilot (Scott) was in the left seat for (a) the transposition and docking, (b) some of the SPS burns before the LM undocked, (c) the RCS separation burn after the LM ascent stage was jettisoned, and (d) one of the SPS burns after that. The commander was in the left seat for the other SPS burns, including the deorbit burn. |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1849
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 10-24-2023 09:16 AM
quote:
Originally posted by ashot:
My understanding is that Apollo did not use individually contoured couches.
Neither did Gemini.
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