Posts: 582
From: Oregon
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posted 06-26-2008 10:09 PM               

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I have been reading the Neil Armstrong biography "First Man" and it mentioned the meeting Deke Slayton had with a select group of astronauts letting them know that those men would be making the moon landings. He also laid out the first three Apollo crews and how the program would progress.

The D mission (Apollo 8) was McDivitt's earth orbital lunar module test flight mission with Conrad, Gordon and Williams (Bean) as the backup crew.

The E mission (Apollo 9) was Borman's crew with Armstrong's crew as the backup.

Had the LM been ready and McDivitt and Borman not switched missions, that would have put McDivitt's backup crew as the prime crew for the first G mission.

So, I have never really thought this out before, but I assume Deke had a plan when he picked the crews. If things hadn't changed, Conrad would have been in line for command of Apollo 11. Am I correct in my interpretation of this?

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From: Bethpage, N.Y.
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posted 06-26-2008 11:11 PM               

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Deke may have had a preference for who walked first but he always knew there was an element of chance/luck involved, especially with the Apollo flights before the first moon landing attempt.

I think he was comfortable with a handful of astronauts making the first steps on the moon. Conrad would have been a great pitchman for NASA if he had been on Apollo 11.

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From: Milford, CT
Registered: Dec 2014

posted 04-06-2015 03:50 PM               

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I heard/read (somewhere!) that Gus Grissom was being "groomed" to be the first man to set foot on the moon. Is this true, and if so/not, where can I find this info?

Editor's note: Threads merged.

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From: Staten Island, New York USA
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posted 04-06-2015 04:14 PM               

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Well, I haven't read or heard anywhere that Grissom was being "groomed" or prepared for the first landing/walk on the moon — or any flight that would have followed his assignment to Apollo 1. True, with Deke Slayton as head of flight crew operations maybe he would prefer one of his fellow Original 7 astronauts as "First Man" — but anyone could have made the final cut, if the fire had not happened in 1967.

Keep in mind a well-documented scene during Gemini, when Slayton called an all-hands meeting of all astronauts to brief them on the order of Apollo flights and their designations and mission goals. He emphasized that each flight would proceed in logical order, and could be repeated if not successful, prior to the first moon landing mission itself.

He closed the meeting by saying that he came into the room that day and looked at the men who would make the first Apollo flights — and the one who would make the first steps on the moon. Grissom was one of many in that room.

With deaths, reassignments and changes in mission plans, it really would have been a long shot for anyone to claim or be assigned a specific Apollo flight years ahead of a launch date and still keep that particular seat.

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Posts: 361
From: Milford, CT
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posted 04-06-2015 07:28 PM               

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I guess "groom" was the wrong word to use.

What I meant was, prior to the Apollo 1 tragedy, NASA, i.e. Slayton et al, had Gus in mind, assuming everything up to the first moon landing mission went A-OK.

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From: Bluffton IN USA
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posted 04-07-2015 08:33 AM               

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My thinking is that Deke would have had to name the first lunar landing crew, commanded by Grissom, without it being assigned to a specific mission number. The crew would have begun training for the first landing, to be inserted into the schedule at the appropriate time.

Since he had no control over the schedule of missions (only over who flew them), that's the only way Deke could have made sure Grissom became the first man to walk on the moon. In other words break the crew rotation system (which he stated he reserved the right to do), I also think it's likely Gus would have had a lot of input into whom else was assigned to the crew.

I picture Deke sitting down with Gus after Apollo 1 and saying "The first moon landing is yours if you want it." Then assuming Gus accepted the offer, "Let's talk about who's gonna be on your crew."

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From: Staten Island, New York USA
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posted 04-07-2015 10:20 AM               

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I can picture Slayton breaking his own rule regarding crew rotations, but for a one-time event like the first moon landing, it certainly would have taken a leap of faith to trust the machines (and men) to carry out the coveted landing on the first try, and perhaps leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth on the reason Slayton scrapped the rotation system.

Although he did put his foot down on Lovell taking Swigert as Mattingly's replacement on Apollo 13, or else Lovell's entire crew would wait for a later flight, I could see Slayton playing favorites regarding his fellow Mercury brethren; witness the swapping of crews for Apollo 13 and Apollo 14, to give Shepard more time for training (of course, after Apollo 13's aborted landing he had more than enough).

With Shepard and Cooper the last (active) astronauts of the Original 7 at the time, it was a no-brainer to tip the hat in favor of Shepard as Cooper, as is known, did not do himself favors as backup Apollo 10 commander and lost out, per Slayton's memoir, on any future Apollo command.

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posted 04-07-2015 11:21 AM               

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Upon the successful completion of Apollo 1, Grissom would have been NASA's most experienced flown astronaut. The first and only one with three flights under his belt (in all three programs; Mercury, Gemini and Apollo, including the first manned flights of the latter two). And on top of that he would have remained no. 1 in the pecking order.

I don't see it as far-fetched that Slayton would decree that Grissom would make the first landing. There might have been a little bit of grumbling among a highly competitive astronaut group, but I doubt many would have questioned the selection of Grissom the individual for that role, or felt that he was "jumping the line" as with Shepard on Apollo 14.

I also think it's possible the official announcement might not have come right away. Due to the development and testing difficulties with the LM, it's unlikely the landing would have occurred before 1969 anyway. Grissom might have spent some time working with Deke in the FCOD until the announcement was made, which might not have been until 1968. By then presumably McDivitt's and Borman's crews would have flown, and there would be a number of astronauts available for assignment to both the prime and backup crews.

I could see either McDivitt or Borman being named as Grissom's backup, as well as Armstrong, Conrad or Stafford.

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posted 04-08-2015 04:25 AM               

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Setting aside that the whole "civilian" story seems to be more rumor than actual directive, according to James Hansen and others, it only surfaced (no pun intended) after Armstrong was assigned to Apollo 11 and the question rose as to who was to be first to step foot on the moon.

If that was indeed the case, then it would never become an issue were Grissom assigned to the mission instead of Armstrong.

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posted 04-08-2015 07:54 AM            

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I always have a rough time imagining who Grissom's crew would have been for a lunar landing because I have a hard time imagining a flawless Apollo 1 mission, and then a solid pace of flights given the delays to the lunar module.

If Apollo 1 flies it would be in early 1967 — great. After that, what would NASA do? The LM isn't ready. The Saturn V isn't ready.

Would Apollo 1 have been as super-successful as Apollo 7 was in 1968? I think not. If a second solo-CSM flight deemed necessary, I am sure Slayton would have flown the backup crew of Schirra, Eisele and Cunningham to keep McDivitt and Borman focused on the LM and Saturn. After that, then what?

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posted 04-08-2015 08:43 AM               

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Remember that NASA Administrator Tom Paine told the Apollo 11 crew just before launch that they would be launched on the next attempt if Apollo 11 failed to land. Whether that would have actually happened we'll never know. But it shows that anything was possible.

However I doubt that Slayton would have kept using Grissom until a successful landing was achieved. Maybe a second try at most but not simply because Slayton was that determined to make Grissom #1. At some point you need to give the crew a break and let another one have at it.

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posted 04-08-2015 12:04 PM            

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The key word in Slayton's description is Grissom would have the "first chance at a lunar landing." The scenario I think Slayton, Gilruth and Kraft all imagined was a lot different than the actuality — especially since they envisioned all the "stepping stones" being accomplished in 1967 and 1968. As it was the lunar module had to prove itself ready to land, quickly in 1969.

I think that Slayton built the rotation so that when it came time to select a landing crew, he would break it and pick whom he saw as the very best to accomplish the task — a hand-picked crew that would have ample time to train for the mission.

Had Gus lived into circumstances similar to what actually occurred, with a landing in July, 1969, I think Slayton, who considered Borman, Lovell and Anders a good landing crew, would have replaced Borman with Grissom (he retired anyway), assigned them Armstrong, Collins, Aldrin as backups and pointed them at Apollo 11. This would have caused minimal disturbance to the rotation. However, Grissom likely would have had to recognize a significant catch — if the landing slipped he would be stuck potentially with a dress-rehearsal flight — and no way out of that.

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posted 04-28-2015 04:30 PM               

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I don't think so, as the latest version at the time of the Apollo 1 fire was the A6L suit still being designed by ILC Dover and equipped with a micrometeroid/thermal cover, and the 'final' version, the A7L, was not ready until 1968, incorporating fireproof material as a result of the Apollo 1 fire.

Grissom, White and Chaffee wore what NASA called the Block I A1C suit, for earth orbital missions only, with the A5L and later A6L being the building blocks for the full EMU suits to fly as Block II.

Grissom could have tried on or posed with a development version of a lunar EVA suit, but as far as photos showing him in such a suit or being fitted for one, I am unaware of that.

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From: Lakeland, FL, USA
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posted 02-21-2018 09:38 AM               

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I read somewhere that the first man to walk on the moon may not of been Neil Armstrong if things worked out differently.

I remember reading that Deke Slayton's first choice to command the first lunar landing and first to walk on the moon was Virgil "Gus" Grissom because he was a very good engineer and had a spark, zest, passion for spaceflight and exploration. I then wonder who would Deke have chosen to be Grissom's LMP and second man to walk on the moon. I heard Donn Eisele (Apollo 7) was being considered to be CMP on the first lunar landing, with Grissom leaving the LMP slot open to be I think Ed White or Roger Chaffee. Of course this never happened because of the Apollo 1 pad fire that took the lives of Grissom, White, and Chaffee.

I then read that Deke Slayton's next choice if things turned out differently was Frank Borman (Apollo 8 commander and lead person in the Apollo 1 pad fire investigation). Deke approached Frank Borman before Apollo 8 flew and asked him if he would like to command the first lunar landing and being the first man on the moon. Borman declined and decided just to command Apollo 8, the first mission to orbit the moon. The reason being is that Borman knew the command module inside and out and had no training on the lunar module, which would of took him many more years to learn to command the first lunar landing after his historic Apollo 8 mission.

So as history ended up, Neil Armstrong was Frank Borman's backup on Apollo 8 and so after Borman declined the first lunar landing it was offered to Neil Armstrong. It helped to that Armstrong was a civilian test pilot and was training or began training in the lunar module just at the right time. Also thanks to the lunar module EVA door opening to the right, Armstrong was to make the first step onto the moon and it helped that he was the commander too. If the door opened to the left it could of been Buzz Aldrin to be the first man on the moon.

Does anyone have more insight on this topic and would appreciate if anyone can add to or give more information about this first man on the moon alternate history. Does this sound like the right set of events that led to Neil Armstrong being the commander of Apollo 11 and the first man to walk on the moon?

Editor's note: Threads merged.

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From: Bethpage, N.Y.
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posted 02-21-2018 01:01 PM               

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You've got the basics right. Slayton also would've liked Grissom to be the first on the moon because he was an Orginal 7 astronaut. I don't think they ever discussed the rest of a lunar landing crew.

I don't believe Borman was ever officially offered the first lunar landing mission. Armstrong happened to be in the rotation at the right time, being a civilian really didn't have much to do with it. Slayton would have also been fine with McDivitt as the first man to walk on the moon.

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From: Alabama, USA
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posted 04-08-2018 07:11 PM               

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I always felt McDivitt got the short straw in Apollo. He may have been the most accomplished Apollo commander who did not reach the Moon, simply because they ran out of missions. He should by all rights have flown a LM to the surface on Apollo 14 or the original H-mission 15. I feel he would not have failed to reach the rim of Cone Crater if he had been at Fra Mauro instead of Shepard.

I feel like if there had been no Fire, both Grissom and Ed White would have made landings at some point.

I also have a sense that Gordon would have been the last of the CMPs to be elevated to Apollo Commander. Slayton seemed to HIGHLY prefer Gemini experience as a prerequisite to Apollo command and nothing Mattingly/Swigert, Roosa, Worden, or Evans did in the center seat really stood out as being "outstanding". Only Mattingly ever flew again, on the Shuttle.

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posted 04-09-2018 11:02 AM               

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McDivitt could have flown on Apollo 14 but he wanted to go with his own crew and not be LMP to Shepard. He was one of those astronauts who didn't feel that walking on the moon was a primary career goal.

As for the CMPs for Apollos 13-17, they all did their jobs well, being coming back from near-disaster, or lunar orbit photography and experiments or EVAs to retrieve film canisters from the SM. As for their not flying again, a major reason was the lack of missions. Roosa might have walked on the moon on Apollo 20. Swigert might have had ASTP if not for the covers incident.

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posted 04-09-2018 01:30 PM               

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McDivitt's decision to stick with the LM mission rather than doing the first lunar orbital flight had a significant impact on the landing crews. Had he accepted Deke's offer to go to the moon on what would be Apollo 8, the backup crew of Conrad/ Gordon/ Bean would have been on Apollo 11, and Armstrong/ Collins/ Aldrin on 12.

Interestingly, Deke offered Collins command of the backup crew for Shepard's flight just before 11 flew. Collins declined. Had McDivitt not made the decision he did, Gordon would have been the CMP available for that command, and he would have certainly accepted. This would have eventually (though not known at that time) led to Gordon commanding 17.

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From: Belfast, United Kingdom
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posted 04-09-2018 05:33 PM            

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quote:

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Originally posted by mooncollector:
Slayton seemed to HIGHLY prefer Gemini experience as a prerequisite to Apollo command...

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And yet Slayton gave command of Skylab 3 to Alan Bean (no Gemini experience; not a CMP) and Skylab 4 to Jerry Carr (rookie).

What actions by Swigert, Roosa, Worden, Mattingly or Evans would you have considered "outstanding?" Is doing the job you are given safely, diligently, and in accordance with the Flight Plan somehow not good enough for you? Those CMPs all did a great job, and when problems arose, they dealt with them. That's what they were trained to do, and that's why they were 2nd-in-command on their missions.

And as Fra Mauro has pointed out, there were no more missions to command, and not every astronaut was prepared to wait 6 years and more for the shuttle.

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From: Brooklin, ON Canada
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posted 04-09-2018 06:20 PM            

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Bean was originally assigned to the Apollo Applications Office in the waning days of Gemini because Slayton didn't see him as a candidate for a lunar flight; (Slayton's own admission in his autobiography "Deke"). Much to his surprise, Bean was Conrad's only pick for the LMP slot after Slayton told him he was to be the Apollo 12 commander.

As the AAP developed into Skylab, Bean's earlier work was noted favorably. Many in the Astronaut Office had no interest in long duration missions confined to LEO. Conrad and Bean made it known early after their return from Apollo 12 that they felt otherwise. With these factors in mind, Bean's assignment to the first two month mission was an obvious choice. With the manned flights winding down, Slayton wanted to fly as many rookies as he could; resulting in two each on Conrad and Bean's flights and three more on the last mission.

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posted 04-10-2018 12:51 PM            

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I'm not ignoring the supportive words that Deke had about Bean in his book and personally I am fan of Bean's accomplishments.

Back in 1966 however, the AAP Office was considered a dead-end assignment within the Astronaut Office. Bean himself has commented on this a few times. He has said that at the time he never really fully understood why he was taken off the Lunar programme; but to his credit simply decided to do the "best job he could do". He was true to his words and the rest is history.

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posted 04-11-2018 10:45 PM               

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In "Apollo 8" (page 258-259), Jeffrey Kluger writes that even before the Apollo 8 crew’s splashdown...

Especially intense was the speculation about when the surely inevitable lunar landing would take place.

The betting was that it could happen as early as May, when Apollo 10 was due to be launched. After a quick shakedown run for the LEM in Earth orbit, it would be off to stamp some bootprints in the Sea of Tranquility. The crew would include Tom Stafford, Wally Schirra’s copilot when Gemini 6 rendezvoused with Gemini 7 in Earth orbit, and he would probably draw the card as the first man on the moon... The press was already starting to prepare the Stafford profiles.

I have been told that Stafford has said this was true, but within a couple of months they knew the LM was still too heavy to make the landing on Apollo 10 and so they began the work to make the mission the last full shakedown flight before the lunar landing attempt.

But if the lunar module had stayed on its planned development schedule, Tom Stafford would have commanded the first moon landing.

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posted 04-13-2018 12:25 PM               

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Agreed.

We had three chances to attempt a lunar landing in 1969 after Apollo 10 flew. Apollo 11 in July, Apollo 12 in September and Apollo 13 in November. No need to jeopardize a crew by rushing.

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posted 04-13-2018 01:09 PM               

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kite:
The correct decision was definitely made.

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It wasn't so much a decision as it was a result of the mass issues with the lunar module. NASA didn't decide not to land Apollo 10; it couldn't even if it wanted to.

So perhaps history played out in NASA's favor, but if the lunar module had been ready for a landing and everything else cooperated, it sounds like NASA would have proceeded with Apollo 10 attempting the first landing.

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posted 04-13-2018 08:07 PM            

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I remember, going back to the early 1960s (probably around 1963-64) that the expectation was that the first landing would be on the fifth Apollo mission, in other words that there would be four test flights followed by the "real thing." I was 9, who was I to question what I had read (probably in a boys' comic)? But of course that was what actually happened. I assume the early reasoning was:

(1) CSM test in orbit; (2) CSM test in high Earth orbit; (3) CSM/LM test in Earth orbit; (4) CSM/LM test in lunar orbit; (5) first landing.

Because I was only 9 I had faith that what I read would actually be done, so it was never a surprise to me that Apollo 11 proved to be the first landing mission. (My father had to take me to one side and point out to me that I shouldn't assume Apollo 11 would succeed. He pointed out that it was possible it would fail and that the crew would die. That hadn't really occurred to me!)

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posted 04-15-2018 08:12 AM               

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Slayton would have been 45 in 1969, so would he have been too old?

My impression is that Al Shepard (who was roughly the same age) only got his lunar assignment because of his friendship with Slayton. If history had been different and Slayton wasn’t grounded... would he have been too old to get one of Apollo missions in the late sixties?

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