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Author
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Topic: Apollo 17: Was Challenger on an incline?
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Buel
Member Posts: 653
From: UK
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 02-12-2016 02:41 PM
   
Please can someone help me here - in this image, it looks like the Apollo 17 lunar module Challenger landed on an incline, is this correct or is it the camera angle? |
Rick Mulheirn
Member Posts: 4208
From: England
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 02-12-2016 04:20 PM
In my opinion, if the astronauts were on a slope when the picture was taken, and judging by the high viewpoint I suspect they were, then they would have compensated for the slope in their stance as evidenced by the cross hairs... being level. If they hadn't... they would in all likelihood fallen over.There are numerous examples on the tv coverage of them commenting on the slopes as they compensate. |
Buel
Member Posts: 653
From: UK
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 02-12-2016 04:26 PM
Hmmm.... I really should have 'got' that. Thank you, Rick.Does anyone know if I can get this image without the cross hairs? Also, no slope here?  |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-12-2016 04:32 PM
The crosshairs are part of the original exposure. A Réseau plate was used to imprint the marks at the same time as the photo being taken. |
Headshot
Member Posts: 891
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 02-12-2016 04:44 PM
A NASA SP document lists Challenger's tilt as 5.9 degrees. This includes the local incline of 3 degrees as well as accounting for Challenger's -Z footpad resting in a small crater. |
p51
Member Posts: 1658
From: Olympia, WA
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted 02-12-2016 06:58 PM
Don't forget, that's the orientation of the camera as it's held (by a guy in a EVA suit, no less), NOT an indication of true up and down. |
Ronpur
Member Posts: 1220
From: Brandon, Fl
Registered: May 2012
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posted 02-12-2016 09:37 PM
Slope or not, that photo really shows just how far away from that tiny LM they were going, and how lonely it looked. |
Buel
Member Posts: 653
From: UK
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 02-13-2016 02:10 AM
Thank you, all. Another interesting one — the LM looks as if it is on a level surface here: |
One Big Monkey
Member Posts: 171
From: West Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Jul 2012
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posted 02-13-2016 02:38 AM
I think this is simply the preceding image to the one in the original post cropped and rotated to make it appear level. Notice the reseau marks are also missing. |
oly
Member Posts: 971
From: Perth, Western Australia
Registered: Apr 2015
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posted 02-13-2016 02:42 AM
The film footage of the Apollo 17 launch filmed from the lunar rover indicated the lunar module on a reasonably level area, as the camera pans up it keeps the LM in frame for some time, a great feat considering the command for the camera to pan up was made 6 seconds before launch. |
David C
Member Posts: 1039
From: Lausanne
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 02-13-2016 04:49 AM
Well in my opinion, most of the "slope" in the original image is due to the leaning over of the astronaut photographer on the slope on which he stands. Same with the similar Apollo 15 pictures. Like all Apollo landing sites the mean slope in the immediate landing zone is near level, for obvious reasons. |
Buel
Member Posts: 653
From: UK
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 02-13-2016 04:58 AM
Interesting. I see in the Moonpans' panorama, it is level.
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oly
Member Posts: 971
From: Perth, Western Australia
Registered: Apr 2015
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posted 02-13-2016 06:20 AM
Two points of interest with this Apollo 17 photo.It was taken using the 500mm lens, this will give photography nuts some idea of distance and perspective. Remember that the longer lenses tend to shorten depth of field. Second point is that the lighter coloured lunar surface where the LM has landed is caused by surface soil being disturbed from the rocket motor plume. This is also evident in the previous photo on this roll of film. |
Buel
Member Posts: 653
From: UK
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 02-13-2016 06:23 AM
That is interesting, thank you. However, which image shows the 'true' angle that the LM sits? |
oly
Member Posts: 971
From: Perth, Western Australia
Registered: Apr 2015
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posted 02-13-2016 06:30 AM
Here is the image without cross hairs (reseau crosses) from Apollo 17 image library. |
mmmoo
Member Posts: 555
From: London, England
Registered: May 2001
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posted 02-13-2016 08:06 AM
The tilt in the image at the top of this thread is definitely due to the astronaut holding the camera at an angle rather than the terrain.The classic Buzz Aldrin Visor shot is a good example of holding the camera at an angle. In assembling dozens on panoramas over the years I have seen frames from the same pan all at differing angles as the astronaut moved in a 360 degree circle. So just by looking at a photo and the reseau lines is not an accurate way to determine the slope. Only by researching the geology reports and perhaps the LM inclination data would give you the true answer. |
Buel
Member Posts: 653
From: UK
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 02-13-2016 11:53 AM
quote:
Originally posted by mmmoo:
The classic Buzz Aldrin Visor shot is a good example of holding the camera at an angle.
Thank you, Mike. Please could you elaborate on that? I didn't know that. |
mmmoo
Member Posts: 555
From: London, England
Registered: May 2001
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posted 02-13-2016 01:53 PM
 |
oly
Member Posts: 971
From: Perth, Western Australia
Registered: Apr 2015
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posted 02-13-2016 04:10 PM
I believe this image gives the best representation of the landing site orientation. This is also the rover final parking position where the launch footage was recorded. |
Buel
Member Posts: 653
From: UK
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 02-13-2016 04:31 PM
I've just walked in to my kitchen to make a cup of tea and whilst the kettle was boiling I opened this page, and that image, on my phone and I found myself shaking my head in disbelief. This is STILL unbelievable over forty five years later. Just unbelievable!Why more people aren't blown away by what these guys did all that time ago, amazes me. |
perineau
Member Posts: 244
From: FRANCE
Registered: Jul 2007
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posted 02-14-2016 03:09 AM
Me too. I was 13 and so awestruck by what they did (I think they were, too). I tell my children that it was a time when people (thanks to these brave men and all who helped them) still dreamed about tomorrow... |
Jonnyed
Member Posts: 408
From: Dumfries, VA, USA
Registered: Aug 2014
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posted 02-14-2016 04:51 PM
Not to digress too much from the topic of the thread but along the lines of the last couple of posts:One of the many marvels of Apollo was the vast TEAM of hundreds of thousands of workers, engineers, scientists, etc. that came together to pull the whole thing off. A massive TEAM effort. Now days it seems like we can't bring anyone together. Lots of division, in-fighting, dog-eat-dog, and a mentality of "scarcity." Truly, the Apollo program was very special and I feel immensely fortunate to have seen it in my lifetime. What an achievement! |
Buel
Member Posts: 653
From: UK
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 02-14-2016 05:02 PM
Both comments say so much and I enjoy reading such comments very much. |
AlanC
Member Posts: 153
From: Scotland
Registered: Nov 2014
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posted 02-17-2016 03:09 PM
Maybe we need another cold war to be sufficiently motivated... |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3160
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 02-17-2016 04:55 PM
Be careful what you wish for! A few days ago, the Russian Prime Minister said that the world is slipping into a new cold war... |
Shane Hannon
Member Posts: 821
From: County Monaghan, Ireland
Registered: Mar 2009
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posted 03-02-2016 09:19 AM
Love this photo Craig — reminds me of the page in Andy Chaikin's brilliant "Voices from the Moon" where it shows a long-distance photo taken on the lunar surface on Apollo 15 and then the zoomed in image, with the LM sitting quietly in the distance. |
Buel
Member Posts: 653
From: UK
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 03-02-2016 09:26 AM
Shane, great to see you're still with us.  Thank you for that — I hadn't seen that one before and, for me, it's right up there with the Apollo 17 one. Anyone have any other similar ones that portray the LM in such an isolated way? |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3324
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-02-2016 10:00 AM
The Apollo 16 LM can be seen in photo AS16-112-18271 taken on EVA-2. The large boulder at top right is House Rock, which was at Station 11 on EVA-3. |
Buel
Member Posts: 653
From: UK
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 03-02-2016 05:14 PM
That is spectacular!! Any more would be appreciated... |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3324
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-02-2016 10:34 PM
The smaller boulder between House Rock and the LM might be Shadow Rock at Station 13. |
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