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Author
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Topic: Apollo 8 mission profile at rollout to the pad
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LM-12
Member Posts: 3324
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 09-18-2014 12:52 AM
  
The Apollo 8 mission profile depended very much on the success of Apollo 7. So when Apollo 8 rolled out to the pad on October 9, two days before the Apollo 7 launch, it was not known for sure what that CSM-only mission profile would be: earth orbital, circumlunar or lunar orbital. Is that correct? Was Apollo 8 rolled out to the pad on October 9 so that it could launch (on one of those mission profiles) before the end of 1968? |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 09-18-2014 09:08 AM
The official decision to send Apollo 8 to the moon wasn't made until a few weeks after Apollo 7 returned, even though the crew had been training for such a flight. The assumption was that 7 would succeed. If it didn't reach the mission goals, then the Apollo 8 mission would have been changed. It is likely to assume that barring a catastrophe Apollo 8 would have flown in late 1968 regardless of the flight profile. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3324
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 09-18-2014 10:33 AM
Interesting. I look at the Apollo 8 rollout photos a little differently now. When those images were taken, it wasn't definite that that flight would be a lunar mission.This is from an MSC new release dated October 28, 1968: Apollo 8, scheduled for December, is now planned as a manned earth orbital mission... As a result of the success of Apollo 7, NASA is giving serious consideration to three alternative mission possibilities... |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 09-18-2014 01:35 PM
The first moves towards a lunar orbit mission can be traced back as far as late 1967 when Chris Kraft suggested it as a means of gaining more information about communications, navigation and thermal control in deep space. By the Spring of 1968 some officials were looking to move the 'E' mission to the vicinity of the Moon.In August 1968 came the realisation that there would be no LM ready for flight that year. This left two CM's fully serviceable with no real purpose in view. Gilruth then decided that CM103 and Saturn V 503 might be used for either a circumlunar or a lunar orbit flight. As a result Kraft was asked to prepare plans for such a mission on 7th August 1968. At a meeting in Huntsville two days later there was formulated 'Sam's Budget Exercise'. This was a code name to preserve the secrecy of these plans until all the factors had been considered. It was named after General Sam Phillips, the Apollo Programme Director. They were especially keen to have a solution to the 'pogo' problem of the Saturn launch vehicle before taking any firm decisions. By August 12th they had picked 20th December as the earliest daylight launch opportunity. Meanwhile, on 10th August, Slayton informed Borman that his crew had been assigned this mission despite some complaints from Dave Scott that he had nursed CSM 103 through its construction. A final vote to proceed was taken on 14th August. Now it just remained to convince George Mueller. He was receptive but James Webb (NASA Administrator) was initially somewhat shocked at the plan. Eventually he agreed providing that no public statements were made and that NASA limited all references to the mission as being just another earth orbital flight. By August 17th the planners were given the all clear to go ahead with the detailed planning with an earliest launch date of 6th December. At this time General Phillips announced that the LM would not be ready for testing on Apollo 8 and that this flight would be changed to test the CSM and Saturn V in high earth orbit. It's worth mentioning that Phillips nearly let the 'cat out of the bag' at a September news conference in Washington when he suggested in response to a question that Apollo 8 "... could go round the Moon." The final decision was taken by the Apollo Executive Committee on 10th November. All agreed to commit Apollo 8 to the lunar orbit mission, though one unnamed person did express a preference for a circumlunar flight. The public announcement came from Tom Paine, a member of the group that formulated 'Sam's Budget Exercise', on 12th November. He said, "After a careful and thorough examination of all of the systems and risks involved, we have concluded that we are now ready to fly the most advanced mission for our Apollo 8 launch in December, the orbit round the Moon." |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3324
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 09-18-2014 06:37 PM
The mission report mentions that "most of the mission guidelines, including launch day, time in lunar orbit, and overall mission time were determined in late August."The latter half of 1968 sure was interesting. |
Paul78zephyr
Member Posts: 678
From: Hudson, MA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 09-19-2014 07:40 AM
I have read that the Apollo 8 mission profile and timing was driven to some extent by persistent 'rumors' that the Russians were planning a manned circumlunar mission before the end of 1968. |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 09-19-2014 08:10 AM
That is true but only to an extent---being ready was a primary concern, as the Apollo fire was not even two years in the past, esp. to Frank Borman. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 09-19-2014 11:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Paul78zephyr:
I have read that the Apollo 8 mission profile and timing was driven to some extent by persistent 'rumors' that the Russians were planning a manned circumlunar mission before the end of 1968.
There is some truth in this. At the time there were reports by some newspapers that Apollo 8 was targeted towards the Moon as a response to the Russian probes of September and November 1968. As seen from my previous post, the plans to send Apollo 8 to the Moon were well underway before this time. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3324
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 09-19-2014 11:57 AM
I have read that the final review by all the top NASA officials was on November 11, and that is when the go-ahead for the Apollo 8 lunar orbit mission was given. The press conference for the Apollo 8 lunar orbit mission was at MSC on November 16.
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Paul78zephyr
Member Posts: 678
From: Hudson, MA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 09-19-2014 03:06 PM
I think NASA was very concerned that after all they had done and been through for the past 7 years that they were going to get 'scooped' by the Russians who would claim that they got a man 'to the moon' first. |
Headshot
Member Posts: 891
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 09-19-2014 04:06 PM
For what it is worth, I located two Chicago newspaper articles with titles such as "Lunar Orbit Is Possible at Christmas" (Tribune, pg. 12) and "For Christmas, Astronauts May Circle The Moon" (Sun-Times, pg. 1). They were both dated September 15, 1968 and specifically discussed Apollo 8. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3324
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 09-19-2014 04:19 PM
Maybe those headlines were a result of the 'slip' by General Phillips at the September news conference mentioned earlier.It seems to me that November 11 was the date when Apollo 8 went from a three-option mission to a lunar orbit mission. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 09-20-2014 04:37 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LM-12:
It seems to me that November 11 was the date when Apollo 8 went from a three-option mission to a lunar orbit mission.
No. Apollo 8 was going to the Moon as from 17th August. The only question was whether it would be a high earth orbit mission, i.e. a circumlunar flight, or a lunar orbit flight. The only proviso was the success of Apollo 7.The November meeting was simply to put an official rubber stamp on the plans. |
hlbjr
Member Posts: 481
From: Delray Beach Florida USA
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 09-20-2014 06:10 AM
Some additional insight is available in the rather amazing book "Apollo" by Charles Murray and Catherine Bly Cox. In my opinion, no discussion of this Apollo 8 process is complete without including George Low in the mix. He was pivotal to the whole process. Also Borman, although cautious, was immediately eager to go for the lunar orbit mission. |
Headshot
Member Posts: 891
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 09-20-2014 07:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by moorouge:
No. Apollo 8 was going to the Moon as from 17th August.
Eddie (moorouge) is right on the mark.The two Chicago newspaper article to which I allude in an earlier post both contain the line, "Sources said within the last six weeks the space agency planners have created new blueprints to orbit the three man crew around the moon..." Six week before the Sept. 15, 1968 publishing date gives us early August 1968. It added, "The space agency announced its official version of Apollo 8, inserting it into the moonflight timetable as an extra flight, on Aug. 19." It also stated that, "The lunar orbit plan still must be approved by Space Agency Administrator James E. Webb" and that, "If major problems develop on [Apollo 7] it would force a switch to less ambitious plans for [Apollo 8]." |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3324
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 09-21-2014 06:56 AM
James Webb's term as NASA administrator ended on October 7, 1968. That was two days before the Apollo 8 rollout. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 09-22-2014 01:47 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LM-12:
James Webb's term as NASA administrator ended on October 7, 1968.
Yes - and as I stated in my original post, he was replaced by Thomas Paine who was a member of the group that formulated 'Sam's Budget Exercise'. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3324
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 08-11-2015 11:56 AM
From the MSC Roundup in August 1968, when LM-3 was dropped from Apollo 8: Apollo Program Director Samuel Phillips last week announced that lunar module operations will be dropped from Apollo VIII - the second manned Apollo mission and the first manned mission using the Saturn V launch vehicle. Speaking at a Washington press conference, Phillips said, "We have decided to fly the next Saturn V - No. 503 - with the command and service module only and not to carry the lunar module on that flight. This decision enables us to move forward in employing the Apollo/Saturn V space system while we work out the problems that are currently delaying the checkout of lunar module 3 that we had intended to fly on 503." Originally scheduled to be flown on Apollo VllI for manned checkout in earth orbit, LM 3 has been delayed in pre-flight checkout and instead will be flown aboard the third manned Apollo mission (A/S-504) with command and service modules Nos. 104 ... "I want to clearly state," said Phillips, "that the Apollo VIII basic mission involves operations in low earth orbit. We believe we can fly that mission in December. While we are preparing for that basic mission, we are conducting studies and preparing plans for reasonable alternatives so that after Apollo VII flys, we can make the best decision as to whether or not to revise Apollo VIII mission objectives." |
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