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Posts: 819
From: Huntington Beach, Calif.
Registered: Aug 2004

posted 02-19-2014 03:15 PM               

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I believe Apollo 20 was cancelled in 1970, Apollo 18 and 19 were cancelled by Nixon the next year. Even if Apollo 13 was successful, the Apollo 18, 19 and 20 lunar landing missions would have been cancelled.

I remember reading something by Cap Weinberger that Nixon wanted to cancel the lunar program after Apollo 14. Besides being blasted by the press for "wasting" taxpayer money on the space program instead of spending that money on social programs, Nixon was afraid that a lunar landing mission would eventually end in disaster.

Posts: 891
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 02-19-2014 04:01 PM               

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There were also discussions about delaying the last two Apollo lunar landing missions until after the Skylab flights. Skylab would have been moved forward and the last two Apollos would have flown in 1973-1974.

I am not certain as to the reasoning behind this.

Posts: 3160
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 02-19-2014 05:35 PM            

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One of the reasons would have been to allow the lunar geologists to "catch their breath."

As a teenage space-nut, I found the gap of 6 months (between Apollos 14 and 15); 9 months (between 15 and 16); and 8 months (between 16 and 17) to be unbearable, but the scientists tasked with analysing the results of each mission had very little time to reach conclusions which might assist the next crew.

I remember the suggestion that the last two landings might be postponed until after Skylab. I suspect that proposal divided the scientists into those who would have appreciated the extra research time and those whose political antennae would have detected the risk of the deferred missions being cancelled.

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Posts: 1051
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004

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posted 02-20-2014 11:10 AM               

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Fred Haise would've been CDR of Apollo 19 with William Pogue as CMP and Gerald Carr as LMP. Haise and Carr would scout the Hyginus Rille after landing there and become the legitimate last men on the Moon. Cernan and Engle, if he flew on 17, would lose that title.

By the way, did you know that Tom Hanks incorrectly said in the 1995 movie, "Apollo 13," that Haise was to be CDR on Apollo 18? Dick Gordon already had that position at the time it was canceled, and I guess Hanks didn't know that for a fact.

Also, Mattingly would focus on either the Apollo Applications Program or the Space Shuttle program. Jack Swigert would've flown on Apollo 16 as CMP with John Young and Charlie Duke, and would've possibly flown his second spaceflight in the Apollo portion of the ASTP mission with Tom Stafford and Deke Slayton if, and only if, the stamp incident did not occur.

What if Robert Crippen, Karol Bobko, and William Thornton from the Skylab Medical Experiment Altitude Test actually flew to Skylab? Could that be possible?

Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007

posted 02-20-2014 11:41 AM               

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If Apollo 13 had been successful, it seems doubtful to me that Haise would have got another landing as CDR of Apollo 19. (Remember Deke Slayton's purported quote about lunar landings: "You only get one of those.")

Maybe he would have made an exception but a more likely scenario to me is Swigert being selected as backup CDR of Apollo 16 then CDR of Apollo 19 with Pogue and Carr.

Or maybe Deke would have convinced Tom Stafford to take the job if he didn't have that confidence in Swigert (and there's no reason to believe he didn't have it).

Posts: 891
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 02-20-2014 12:24 PM               

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Had 13 landed and only Apollo 20 been cancelled, Apollo 19 would probably have been targeted for Hadley. The original Apollo 15 H-4 mission's target was the bright new crater Censorinus. These are from the final landing site candidate list published in late Oct. 1969. Of course this list became somewhat moot after the events of 1970.

I believe that Hyginus Rille was dropped from the landing site candidate list in favor of Davy Rille/crater chain. Eventually Davy was itself dropped in favor of Hadley Rille.

Posts: 1051
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 02-20-2014 05:57 PM               

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quote:

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Originally posted by Delta7:
Or maybe Deke would have convinced Tom Stafford to take the job if he didn't have that confidence in Swigert

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Or maybe Jim McDivitt.

Anyway for the last shot a Haise second landing would have been great! In a parallel universe maybe Fred Haise is the man that would go twice on the moon!

(For Skylab 4 some possibility for Schweickart, McCandless, Musgrave?)

Posts: 277
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posted 02-20-2014 08:14 PM            

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quote:

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Originally posted by Delta7:
(Remember Deke Slayton's purported quote about lunar landings: "You only get one of those.")

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That was in regards to commanding a lunar landing. LMPs were considered possible candidates to return to the Moon - though I am sure Slayton would have preferred to spread the wealth, and assign CMP's and CDRs. I'd just guess Slayton would make the call on who he felt was more qualified to fly as CDR (former CMP or LMP) and who was available to recycle.

Had Swigert flown on Apollo 16, I doubt he would have been considered for ASTP. Slayton had him under consideration for ASTP because he felt bad throwing him aboard Apollo 13 at the last minute, and then the flight nearly killed him - he wanted Swigert to get a shot at a good, successful flight.

Posts: 1051
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 02-21-2014 09:10 AM               

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quote:

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Originally posted by Skylon:
I'd just guess Slayton would make the call on who he felt was more qualified to fly as CDR (former CMP or LMP) and who was available to recycle.

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Roosa?

(I remember bad, or Fred Haise was the more qualified LMP?)

Posts: 277
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posted 02-21-2014 11:29 AM            

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If needed, I think Slayton would have had no qualms about assigning Roosa as CDR. This is really a grey area of speculation though, and we are dancing around so many what-ifs (Apollo 13 successfully flying AND Apollo 18 and 19 not getting scrubbed) you run into a lot of possibilities - Would Fred Haise want to even go back to the Moon if he walked on it once? Did Slayton consider Jack Swigert a potential lunar landing commander? It's anybody's guess.

I have always wondered what implications the flights of Apollo 18 and 19 would have on Skylab. Who would have a better shot at commanding Skylab 4 - Walt Cunningham or Rusty Schweickart - or does someone from Apollo like Stu Roosa get moved over to Skylab? My personal thought is, SL 2 and 3 fly with the same crews. SL 4 flies with Bruce McCandless as PLT. Don Lind flies on ASTP as CMP or DMP.

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From: Bethpage, N.Y.
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Posts: 8
From: Edinburgh UK
Registered: Jul 2013

posted 02-22-2014 03:57 PM            

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I don't see why Haise wouldn't get the flight. He was first Group 5 to get assigned, and had backed up twice before 13. Obviously he was in Slayton's good books, and was highly trained. Slayton states that he was 'pointed at 19' (in 'Deke')and given that he was prepared to hang in and remain dead-end back-up on 16 it doesn't seem like he was tired of the grind. Given astronaut office attrition, other candidates needing to get back into the rotation in time and barring McDivitt or Stafford 'doing a Shepard' - I don't see him getting bumped.

On McDivitt coming back into the rotation - I've always wondered about what Dave Scott said in 'Two Sides of the Moon'. He recounts McDivitt telling him he was tired and that Apollo 9 would be his last mission. I've never seen that stated anywhere else. It contradicts the notion that McDivitt wanted to fly again, but with his Apollo 9 crew - and the idea of him being LM pilot under Shepard (both scenarios mentioned in 'Deke'). What does McDivitt say - apart from that he's never going to write a book....

Posts: 57
From: Savannah, GA, USA
Registered: Aug 2011

posted 02-22-2014 08:34 PM            

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quote:

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Originally posted by Skylon:
Would Fred Haise want to even go back to the Moon if he walked on it once?

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Considering how he hung in there as backup commander of Apollo 16, which was a dead end job, it's pretty clear Haise would have cheerfully walked on the Moon twice. I can't imagine any of the LMP's wouldn't have enjoyed walking on the Moon twice, especially if they got to be Commander.

Oh how I wish NASA had flown 18 and 19, especially after the accident on 13. I always felt Dick Gordon and Fred Haise deserved their chance to walk on the Moon.

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From: New York
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