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Author
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Topic: George Mueller and 'all-up' Saturn testing
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DFBrunswick
Member Posts: 40
From: California, USA
Registered: May 2015
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posted 03-12-2017 08:50 PM
   
George Mueller, the associate administrator of NASA's Office of Manned Space Flight, made the famous decision to go with "all-up" testing of the Saturn rocket in 1963. So a number of Saturn test flights were cancelled. Before Muller went with all-up testing were there plans to test launch each Saturn V stage separately? For example, would the second stage of the Saturn V (the S-II stage) have been test launched by itself without any other stages? I have also heard that a number of Saturn I missions were cancelled as a result of Mueller's decision. But I have never heard how many. The Saturn I was discovered to be insufficient to the needs of the program. So what payloads of value could the Saturn I have actually launched? |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 03-13-2017 02:23 AM
You might like to read this from "Apollo Expeditions to the Moon," An All-Up Test For The First Flight: Before Mueller joined the program, it had been decided that a total of about 20 sets of Apollo spacecraft and Saturn V rockets would be needed. Clearly, at least ten unmanned flights with the huge new rocket would be required before anyone would muster the courage to launch a crew with it... |
Headshot
Member Posts: 891
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 03-13-2017 07:37 AM
As I recall from some articles in Aviation Week & Space Technology during the mid-to-late 60s, there was to be a Saturn vehicle consisting of just the S-II and S-IVB stages (sometimes with a Centaur third stage) for launching unmanned planetary spacecraft. There were line drawing diagrams with the articles. |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1488
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 03-13-2017 10:44 AM
quote:
Originally posted by DFBrunswick:
...would the second stage of the Saturn V (the S-II stage) have been test launched by itself without any other stages?
No, there would have been S-IC flights with dummy upper stages. Then S-IC with live S-II and dummy S-IVB. It would have been like S-I and the addition of the S-IV. quote:
So what payloads of value could the Saturn I have actually launched?
Planetary missions. |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3160
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 03-13-2017 02:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Headshot:
..there was to be a Saturn vehicle consisting of just the S-II and S-IVB stages (sometimes with a Centaur third stage)
Not possible. The S II had a total thrust (in vacuum) which only very slightly exceeded the stage's fully-fuelled weight. I very much doubt if it could have got off the ground on its own, let alone carrying an upper stage and (to provide steering instructions) an Instrument Unit. To lift off, the Saturn V needed the brute-force of its five F1 engines. |
Headshot
Member Posts: 891
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 03-13-2017 06:25 PM
AW&ST issue August 8, 1966, pgs 58-78. There are proposed strap-on motors from the Minuteman missle. |
DFBrunswick
Member Posts: 40
From: California, USA
Registered: May 2015
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posted 03-13-2017 11:05 PM
About the Saturn I payloads, "Apollo Expeditions to the Moon" (linked above) points out that as many as 20 Saturn I launches would have taken place. I am assuming these would have mostly been CSM flights and maybe the LM as well? Although I am unclear if the Saturn I had the lift capacity to launch the CSM or LM when their weights were finally determined. A related question concerns the Saturn IB. The Saturn IB was under development at the time. Yet 15 Saturn IBs were ordered and this resulted in an oversupply of them. Did Mueller's "all-up" testing decision have anything to do with why there were so many Saturn IBs left over? |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3160
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 03-15-2017 06:07 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Headshot:
AW&ST issue August 8, 1966, pgs 58-78. There are proposed strap-on motors from the Minuteman missle.
Aha! That makes more sense, but the S-II stage was relatively flimsy. Did it really have enough structural strength to be dragged into the lower atmosphere and through "max Q" by powerful solid boosters? I'm still rather sceptical that this could have been achieved. |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1488
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 03-15-2017 10:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DFBrunswick:
I am assuming these would have mostly been CSM flights and maybe the LM as well?
Yes, but with propellant offloaded. IB was not capable of launching either with full loads. quote:
Did Mueller's "all-up" testing decision have anything to do with why there were so many Saturn IBs left over?
Yes, because spacecraft development flights were concurrent with launch vehicle development flights. |
DFBrunswick
Member Posts: 40
From: California, USA
Registered: May 2015
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posted 03-16-2017 12:11 AM
Thank you. Is there an early Apollo flight schedule listing what the Saturn I missions would have been? |
dtemple
Member Posts: 730
From: Longview, Texas, USA
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 04-06-2017 11:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by DFBrunswick:
Is there an early Apollo flight schedule listing what the Saturn I missions would have been?
I doubt there was an official schedule produced. The plan for manned Saturn I launches was short-lived. About September 1963, the decision was made that the first Chrysler-built S-I stage would be used with a dummy S-IV to launch a manned Apollo spacecraft on a ballistic trajectory followed by three orbital flights. My source for this is the March 4, 1963 issue of Aviation Week & Space Technology. The first Chrysler-built S-I stage was actually flown on SA-8 or SA-9 (I think "8" but not sure). I do not know if initially NASA was planning a manned flight that early or the first Chrysler-built stage was built sooner than expected. The manned flights that were cancelled were SA-11 through SA-14. According to Saturn 1/1B by Alan Lawrie, the first stages for SA-11 and SA-12 were converted into SA-201 and SA-202, respectively; the respective S-IV stages were partially completed before the cancellation and ultimately scrapped after the Saturn I manned flights were cancelled in October 1964. |
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