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  Alternate Apollo (Convair, GE and Martin)

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Author Topic:   Alternate Apollo (Convair, GE and Martin)
Obviousman
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From: NSW, Australia
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posted 10-24-2007 05:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Obviousman   Click Here to Email Obviousman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was reading about how Convair, GE, and Martin were invited to submit designs for the Apollo spacecraft but were never used (Max Faget's designs being the 'winner').

Are those original proposals from the companies still available anywhere online? I'd be interested to see what they looked like, what the major conceptual differences were, etc.

art540
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From: Orange, California USA
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posted 10-24-2007 10:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for art540   Click Here to Email art540     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Paul Carsola had a brief article on the Convair proposal in a recent article in Quest in 2006.

Jay Chladek
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From: Bellevue, NE, USA
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posted 10-24-2007 10:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jay Chladek   Click Here to Email Jay Chladek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Back in college when I did a term paper in English class on the Apollo program, I used it as an excuse to go digging through some really old issues of Aviation Week on microfiche at the local university library (they had issues going back to the mid-1950s). I think it was the 1960-61 time period that had sketches of the different company proposals from that first Apollo study period.

Remember this was long before the LM was a dream in John Houbolt's mind, so it was still a program with one craft landing on the moon and coming home (be it direct ascent or EOR for fueling before going to the moon). The concepts I saw were mainly limited to the command module though rather then a big spacecraft with legs as I recall, probably since that would have been tied in with whatever stage 3 of the booster was going to be (S-IV rather then S-IVB mainly).

If I recall correctly, Convair's concept looked very much like the CM concept that NASA went with for Apollo and the LES looked almost identical. One concept (Martin's I think) utilized a strange lifting body style shape with drag foils for use in reentry with the idea being that it could be steered to a land landing as opposed to a water landing. The other two concepts were more traditional capsule variations. In the final CSM design, it was a capsule, but the offset center of gravity of the CM gave it some lifting body characteristics for the skip reentry.

From what I remember about government contracts, the ideas can be proposed, but the company that proposes the idea still has to bid on the contract to get it and it doesn't always get it. The crawlers used to transport the Saturn V moon rockets for instance were proposed by one of two companies that made giant crawler tractor machines at the time. But the contract to build them went to the OTHER company that also made giant crawler vehicles. So indeed it is possible for NASA to go with something that resembled the Convair design in part, even though Convair wasn't the prime contractor.

Max Faget still finalized a few of the sub-design elements in it and his hand can be seen in how the CM was equipped vs. how John Chamberlin's Gemini design was utilized on the small stuff. The big design of Gemini may have resembled Mercury (i.e. Faget), but Chamberlin fleshed out other features on it.

Obviousman
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From: NSW, Australia
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posted 10-25-2007 11:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Obviousman   Click Here to Email Obviousman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If anyone is interested: I presume that these concepts were resurrected and examined during the Orion design stages?

I mean the NASA Apollo design worked, and worked well, but as the site above points out, the GE design was similar in many respects to Soyuz, and Soyuz is still flying.

Paul Carsola
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From: San Diego, CA, USA
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posted 01-28-2008 01:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul Carsola   Click Here to Email Paul Carsola     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by art540:
Paul Carsola had a brief article on the Convair proposal in a recent article in Quest in 2006.
The subject of my Quest article that Art mentioned is Convair's LEM proposal. I have some pictures of it and Republics LEM model posted here.

Atlas/Apollo
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posted 07-12-2016 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Atlas/Apollo   Click Here to Email Atlas/Apollo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I believe I have the original artwork for the Convair proposal. A obtained the artwork from a good friend of mine that had worked at Convair. There three separate pieces depicting different events that were taking place with the vehicle. I will try to post photos of the pieces if anyone is interested?

GACspaceguy
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posted 07-12-2016 03:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for GACspaceguy   Click Here to Email GACspaceguy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would like to see it. When I worked for Canadair in Montreal (formally a General Dynamic company) I had come across some old Convair concepts of a Mercury Program spacecraft concept. I really wish I had taken more time to study the info as I have never seen it again in any publications.

Atlas/Apollo
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posted 07-13-2016 08:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Atlas/Apollo   Click Here to Email Atlas/Apollo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The friend that gave me the artwork was the chief test pilot for General Atomics' Orion Project (David Weiss). Unfortunately he passed away a few years ago now. The vehicles in the artwork all have USAF markings and depict the vehicle in different stages of its operation. All of the artwork and cover sheets are titled and signed by J. Bryant: Apollo Atlas Separation, Apollo Reentry Heating and Apollo Landing.

Scott Lowther
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From: Thatcher, UT, USA
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posted 07-23-2016 12:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Lowther   Click Here to Email Scott Lowther     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Those are paintings of the Project Orion "landing boat." The desk in the photo is that of the artist Bryant; I was in touch with him a few years ago, he confirmed that he painted these for Orion.

What's depicted is a test flight of the landing boat on an Atlas. As for the Apollo notations he wasn't sure, but since Convair *did* design a lifting body Apollo craft that used the same unique folding wings as the Landing Boat, it's most likely that the art was simply repurposed for a presentation on the Apollo concept.

GACspaceguy
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posted 07-23-2016 06:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for GACspaceguy   Click Here to Email GACspaceguy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have never seen that before, very cool!

Atlas/Apollo
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posted 07-23-2016 01:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Atlas/Apollo   Click Here to Email Atlas/Apollo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The "Landing Boat" theory has been brought up previously on another forum. I and others that I have communicated with have serious doubts to that connection.

As I have previously noted all of the artwork has been titled on each individual piece, Apollo this or Apollo that. Apollo seems to be the intended vehicles given name. In what appears to be Bryant's own hand writing he has titled the individual cover sheets, permanently attached to each piece, with a description of the vehicles particular status and also signed his name to the cover sheet and artwork (two signatures per piece). There is no mention of General Atomic nor the "Landing Boat" anywhere on the three pieces. When David did his interview of "Orion Project" with the BBC the artwork was never presented to the BBC interviewer as had been done by others during interviews. The desk photo shows three individual pieces, the third piece that is being partially blocked from the viewer's eye is actually a different vehicle and the third piece of artwork I own that is missing from the photo is the "Apollo Rentry Heating" piece.

It seems particularly odd to me that this vehicle would be any kind of "Landing Boat" as the craft only transported one individual, the pilot. To me a "Landing Boat" would require the ability of the vehicle to transport several individuals. The pilots (only one) scale size would indicate that there was only enough room in the vehicle for him and no passengers.

It would be neat to see other original conceptual ideas that were proposed for this program or others.

Scott Lowther
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From: Thatcher, UT, USA
Registered: Oct 2011

posted 07-24-2016 03:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Lowther   Click Here to Email Scott Lowther     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Atlas/Apollo:
In what appears to be Bryant's own hand...
See, that's the thing. Bryant himself told me that those paintings were his, and that they were of the landing boat. When the artist himself says "it's X," then chances are it's X. The design also fits closely with a description given to me by David Weiss in 2008. A lot of the description didn't make much sense... a skid used as an entry shield, "diamond shaped," a few other things. At the time he was suffering from Alzheimers and I didn't know what to make of the descriptions, but when Bryant confirmed the art, it matched. The "diamond shape" fits if you look at it from the front.

As to only carrying one person:

  1. If that's true... then how is it an Apollo concept? Three was the minimum.
  2. The landing boat was close to the same size as the Convair lifting body Apollo RV. But it had a deeper, more voluminous fuselage. There was room to pack a number of passengers in there, so long as they were just going up or down, not spending time floating around on a mission.

    The tail end of this thing is ten feet thick (same as the diameter of the Atlas booster), far thicker than needed for passenger transport.

This image shows to-scale comparisons of the landing boat, the Convair Apollo and a NASA-tested folding wing spaceplane designed for military missions of all things. They are all strikingly of about the same size, and all have the same unusual folding wing arrangement.

Atlas/Apollo
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posted 07-24-2016 02:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Atlas/Apollo   Click Here to Email Atlas/Apollo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I understand your questioning the use of a skid as a shield for reentry speculative but the artwork is clearly described, in this case "Apollo Reentry Heating" by whoever penciled it onto the cover sheet and then signed it "J. Bryant." The artwork itself is also signed "J.Bryant." If you look at the artwork I provided above you can clearly see the effects of the reentry heating on the vehicle.

I looked at the drawings that you referenced in your reply but was unable to see any connection to any particular manufacturer in the drafting box notes, is this something that you sourced elsewhere or did on your own? In your referenced drawings it clearly shows the landing skid deployed as a shield in the "Landing Boat Reentry" drawing?! I went ahead and purchased from your website the articles about the "Landing Boat," unfortunately there were no diagrams or schematics that matched your link drawings or of the vehicle in my artwork of this particular craft only written descriptions. The drawings that were included in the information I purchased from you were of a completely different vehicle and those drawings were done by you and titled "Convair Landing Boat" in the drafting box. In the article the "Landing Boat" is described as its own space vehicle with its own mission and then ultimately being repurposed to the "Orion Project." I am under the impression that you did all of the drawings and descriptions of the vehicle and the intended use in all of your website content? If so I would really like to see the original information you sourced to complete your articles. In looking at the drawings of other vehicles in the article that I had purchased there are manufacturers names and descriptions, along with other "Apollo" titled vehicles.

Why was the diagram that you linked in this forum not in the article referencing the Convair "Landing Boat" that I had purchased from you? Why was the diagram that was in the article titled "Convair Landing Boat" different than your link in this forum?

This is the "Convair Landing Boat" drawings that you drew per your website...

SkyMan1958
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From: CA.
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posted 07-24-2016 06:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SkyMan1958   Click Here to Email SkyMan1958     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here's another variant of how to get to the Moon...
As early as 1961, before Gemini even had an official name, NASA was already thinking about how they could send one to the moon.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 07-24-2016 08:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For more about that alternate, see the discussion: Gemini to the moon: Was it possible?

Atlas/Apollo
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posted 07-24-2016 08:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Atlas/Apollo   Click Here to Email Atlas/Apollo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very cool, sort of a '32 Deuce Coupe "High Boy"... in this case... VERY HIGH!!!

Scott Lowther
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From: Thatcher, UT, USA
Registered: Oct 2011

posted 07-24-2016 09:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Lowther   Click Here to Email Scott Lowther     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The "Convair Landing Boat" was a slightly earlier design, *reasonably* well publicized at the time. It was shown in a lot of artwork done for concepts promoted by Krafft Ehricke... small space stations based on Atlas on up to lunar landing missions. Note that Kraft Ehricke soon became a proponent of Orion. General Atomic was a division of General Dynamics at the time, alongside Convair, so it's no great surprise that concepts would slide sideways from one department to another.
quote:
Originally posted by Atlas/Apollo:
The artwork itself is also signed "J.Bryant."
Yup. And since J. Bryant told me flat-out that those were Orion landing boats painted for Orion while he was working on Orion...
quote:
If so I would really like to see the original information you sourced to complete your articles.
The "Convair landing boat" diagrams were made using the numerous pieces of art and photos of contemporary display models. The "orion landing boat" diagrams were made from the three paintings. The "fighter" was made from diagrams in NASA wind tunnel test reports. The "Convair Apollo" lifting body was redrawn from diagrams in a Convair Apollo report. The latter two were originally found on NTRS, and IIRC the article on those in that issue of APR had bibliographic references.
quote:
Why was the diagram that you linked in this forum not in the article referencing the Convair "Landing Boat" that I had purchased from you?
Not sure what you bought. The Apollo/Orion/Fighter designs were in APR issue Volume 3 Number 3. The Convair landing boat was in US Spacecraft Projects #1.

Atlas/Apollo
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posted 07-25-2016 12:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Atlas/Apollo   Click Here to Email Atlas/Apollo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Scott, thank you for posting the information with the blurb about the "Landing Boat," it is much appreciated. The information I purchased was for the "Convair Landing Boat," the diagram that I posted was from that purchased information.

As you had previously told me you believe that J. Bryant had told you that the artwork was from the "Orion Project," I believe what you say but... when was the last time that he saw the artwork with the cover page descriptions of the vehicle? I do not know when you spoke to Bryant or how his memory was at the time you spoke to him, I do know that he titled and signed these pieces when he completed them and I would trust that over anything else.

I do know that he has since passed on because I spoke with his wife about the artwork and actually forwarded scans for her to view, she couldn't recall the artwork and she had several of his other pieces in her possession.

Scott Lowther
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From: Thatcher, UT, USA
Registered: Oct 2011

posted 07-25-2016 01:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Lowther   Click Here to Email Scott Lowther     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was in semi-regular email communications with Bryant, discussing all things Orion (even getting an all-new sketch of one of the early Orion concepts), when he suddenly went silent. So that gives the timeframe. I had forwarded him the links to these paintings when they popped up online some years ago (don't know if that was you or not), after recognizing them in the desk photo which he had previously sent to *me.*

At that earlier time he expressed the sadness that many "company artists" have that their work vanish into a deep dark hole, and that they often don't have so much as a snapshot of it. At the time, he was pretty sure he'd never see them again... so he seemed pretty happy to see them again, a year or two later.

It's not the first time that I've seen this sort of thing happen; earlier this year I was paid to re-create an old display model of an MX-1593 (the early larger five-engine Atlas concept) for a documentary company. They were going to re-interview a USAF General who'd been interviewed 20 years ago with that model in the background, but he'd sold it off in the meantime. And no joke, a few weeks after I shipped off the model, the very model that the General had on his desk showed up on eBay (162125286597).

Sometimes the timing of things is astonishing.

As to the Apollo notations, Bryant and I discussed them; he had no idea what they might have been. He said he left General Atomic and the Orion project shortly after doing those and never saw them again. It may be they were recycled because they resembled one of the Convair Apollos. And it may be that someone had them and had no idea what they were, and assumed they were Apollo because of that resemblance. We'll probably never know.

There were reportedly truckloads of art and engineering diagrams and models made for Orion, and they've largely been stuffed down the memory hole. A lot no doubt got taken home; and when the engineer/artist who took them home died - and with Orion, that means most of them by now - the stuff goes to family members who likely have not clue one what they've got.

As another example, just last week I got two diagrams purchased from eBay. The seller was correct in that they depicted Convair Mach 3 ramjet powered carrier aircraft, but missed the minor detail that they were nuclear powered.

Atlas/Apollo
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posted 07-25-2016 05:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Atlas/Apollo   Click Here to Email Atlas/Apollo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am certain that J. Bryant titled and signed each of the cover sheets, there is no mistaking the comparison of the individual letters. Here are scans from the cover sheets, the cover sheets are taped along one edge to each piece of artwork...

Scott Lowther
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From: Thatcher, UT, USA
Registered: Oct 2011

posted 07-25-2016 11:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Lowther   Click Here to Email Scott Lowther     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Don't know what to tell ya. All I know is what the man himself told me. And again, if this is a one-man vehicle, it's not Apollo. If it's marked USAF and not NASA... it's not Apollo.

So... shrug.

Agree to disarglebargle, or something.

I suppose it might just barely be possible that the Orion landing boat was internally named "Apollo," having nothing to do with the NASA "Apollo," but that's kinda reaching and based on nothing...

Atlas/Apollo
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posted 07-25-2016 12:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Atlas/Apollo   Click Here to Email Atlas/Apollo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I found this piece of information regarding the USAF involvement in the space race.

From the information in the article it appears that the USAF was determined to be part of it; our politicians were touting the "Space for Peace" policy, more than likely the reason for hiding any kind of USAF affiliation with anything to do with space.

All times are CT (US)

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