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Author
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Topic: Gemini 3: John Young's corned beef sandwich
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carmelo
Member Posts: 1051
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 11-12-2005 09:49 PM
   
Excerpt from Wikipedia: Making the first manned flight of the Gemini spacecraft with Virgil Grissom, Young scored another space "first" by smuggling a corned beef sandwich onto the spacecraft - a feat for which he was reprimanded. Young then trained as back-up pilot for Gemini 6, but after the sandwich episode, for a time it seemed that NASA did not know what to do with Young. Other Group 2 astronauts with flight experience were quickly moved to Apollo, while other astronauts such as Scott Carpenter and Gordon Cooper had been sidelined for lesser infractions. The deaths of Charles Bassett and Elliott See the prime crew of Gemini 9 created a hole in the astronaut corps so that Young was confirmed as Commander of Gemini 10. After the sandwich episode, for a time it seemed that NASA did not kmow what to do with Young? |
mdmyer
Member Posts: 900
From: Humboldt KS USA
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted 11-13-2005 06:38 AM
I am reading Colin' Burgess' book "Fallen Astronauts" and in that book Colin states that James Webb was so upset with the crew about the corned beef sandwich that Webb saw to it that Grissom and Young did not receive the post flight promotion in rank. I don't know if this was the first crew not to be promoted right after their flight but it might be. Either way I don't think NASA did not know what to do with John Young. |
John Charles
Member Posts: 342
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 11-13-2005 11:41 AM
If I recall correctly, Grissom and Young were promoted by President Johnson at the same time he promoted McDivitt and White after Gemini 4.This idea of a senior manager being upset at one or more astronauts for what seem (to me) pretty petty reasons is a recurring theme. I am interested in how these important men with so much to do can get distracted by such trivial issues. There must be a fact of human nature in there, somewhere. quote:
Originally posted by carmelo:
After the sandwich episode, for a time it seemed that NASA did not kmow what to do with Young?
It seems to me that NASA was not at much of a loss regarding Young. After he came off of the Gemini 6 backup pilot rotation, he was assigned to the first available command-pilot slot: Gemini 10. That "hole" was created when Ed White (Gemini 7 backup command pilot) was moved over to the first Apollo crew under Grissom (also from the Gemini 6 backup crew) — it had nothing to do with the deaths of See and Bassett. Young's otherwise predictable rotation from backup crew to prime crew three flights later was disrupted by two crew assignments made by Deke Slayton: first, when he assigned the intact Gemini 3 crew, Grissom and Young, to back up Gemini 6, instead of promoting Young to command pilot and moving Grissom elsewhere; second, when he spilt up the Gemini 5 backup crew, Armstrong and See, instead of flying them together on Gemini 8, and instead assigned Armstrong as command pilot to Gemini 8 and See to 9, in what might have been Young's expected seat. Unless maybe the Wikipedia is hinting that Young could not be trusted as backup command pilot on Gemini 6 and need Grissom there the watch over him on 6, and also need See to fill in for him on 9? But such a scenario has not been alluded to before, as far as I know, and certainly not over something as insignificant as a sandwich. |
Duke Of URL
Member Posts: 1316
From: Syracuse, NY
Registered: Jan 2005
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posted 11-13-2005 09:16 PM
Wikipedia articles are written by contributors and corrections are welcomed and encouraged. So if anybody has any facts on this and feels a need to correct the record, Wikipedia would accept your submission. |
star61
Member Posts: 294
From: Bristol UK
Registered: Jan 2005
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posted 11-15-2005 06:45 AM
Wally gave the sandwich to Young. Tut Tut... was this a really bad Gotcha! |
Glint
Member Posts: 1044
From: New Windsor, Maryland USA
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 11-15-2005 09:49 AM
quote:
Originally posted by star61:
Was this a really bad Gotcha!
Sure was. In "Schirra Space" he writes that he bought it the night before and placed in the fridge in the crew quarters. He notified Young who grabbed it the next morning when suiting up for launch.Young didn't whip it out until the commander complained of hunger, according to Schirra. And, according to Schirra, Young suffered no lasting disciplinary action despite the machinations of the MSM. |
KC Stoever
Member Posts: 1012
From: Denver, CO USA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 11-15-2005 10:06 AM
Regarding the Young entry in Wikipedia, I was troubled by the unsubstantiated assertion of fact: "NASA didn't know what to do with him." Huh? This is worse than sloppy thinking and writing and should be deleted. Any number of posters here could do better, and should. Use the edit function over at the wiki! If edits are overridden, which I would not expect them to be, take your complaint to the top. The wiki is only as good as its amateur editors. |
Duke Of URL
Member Posts: 1316
From: Syracuse, NY
Registered: Jan 2005
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posted 11-15-2005 10:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Glint:
In "Schirra Space" he writes that he bought it the night before and placed in the fridge in the crew quarters. He notified Young who grabbed it the next morning when suiting up for launch.
It was my impression Deke Slayton was aware of the sandwich prior to liftoff, but I could be wrong. |
robertsconley
Member Posts: 59
From: Meadville, PA
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 12-06-2005 12:55 AM
I think "Deke!" sets it straight. See was given Gemini because Slayton didn't think that he was physically up to the Gemini 8 EVA tasks. But apparently he felt that every astronaut should get a shot at a flight so since Young had a flight and See didn't, See got the nod for Gemini 9.Ed White the backup commander was moved to Apollo 1 apparently Deke felt he going Glenn's route and looking at politics. This opened up Young to command Gemini 10. I am willing to bet that Slayton never planned to have White command Gemini 10 and was going to put him into Apollo as soon as he was done with Gemini 7. Because of the importance of Gemini 6 the timing of training it looks like Slayton keep the team of Grissom and Young together as the backup of Gemini 6. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 02-09-2012 10:03 AM
Just to belatedly add to John Young's sandwich incident on Gemini 3.According to Mary Roach in her book "Packing for Mars" (p245), this incident became ammunition at NASA budget hearings. In July 1965, Senator Morse pushing for a 50% reduction said that Young had 'made a mockery' of the Gemini science programme. Someone else asked NASA Administrator Webb how he expected to control the budget if he couldn't control his astronauts. The sandwich violated no less than sixteen manufacturing requirements for 'Beef Sandwiches Dehydrated (Bite-sized)'. |
capoetc
Member Posts: 2178
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 02-09-2012 10:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by moorouge:
...In July 1965, Senator Morse pushing for a 50% reduction ...
So, how did that request work out for the Senator? I seem to recall that cooler heads prevailed and the US landed men on the moon 4 years later. You can always count on politicians to try to use ANYTHING for political purposes, whether it makes sense or not. |
carmelo
Member Posts: 1051
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 02-09-2012 03:52 PM
What if Scott Carpenter, Gordon Cooper or Rusty Schweickart had eaten that sandwich? Let me guess: "That SOB will never fly for me again". But Young was in the "right" bunch.
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onesmallstep
Member Posts: 1313
From: Staten Island, New York USA
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 02-09-2012 04:17 PM
Will be interesting to read Young's take on the sandwich in his upcoming bio 'Forever Young'.. |
carmelo
Member Posts: 1051
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 02-09-2012 05:37 PM
"Forever Young"! Really? Great title! |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 02-10-2012 04:15 AM
Mary Roach says that Young was "persuaded" by Schirra to take the sandwich, perhaps indicating that Young was reluctant.As the original holder of this illicit cargo, is there any record of Schirra being reprimanded also? |
Skylon
Member Posts: 277
From:
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 02-10-2012 06:19 AM
Since Young was the guy who actually brought it, he got the reprimand. Though Collins stated in "Carrying the Fire" that most of us (the Astronaut Office) "could have strangled Wally" over the PR flap that happened.Of course Collins in general seemed put off by Schirra, throughout that book. |
Glint
Member Posts: 1044
From: New Windsor, Maryland USA
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 02-10-2012 07:59 AM
quote:
Originally posted by capoetc:
So, how did that request work out for the Senator?
The Democrat senator lost his seat at the next election in 1968 to Bob Packwood.
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fredtrav
Member Posts: 1677
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010
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posted 02-10-2012 09:20 AM
I guess the question that need to be asked is was it on rye with deli mustard? |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 02-10-2012 11:30 AM
I'm guessing it was a case of veteran astronaut telling rookie astronaut to do something and even one as "cranky" as John Young wasn't going to say no. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 02-10-2012 11:42 AM
The crew of Gemini III had some specially prepared meals in squeeze tubes and small packets to eat. The menu included chicken legs, brownies, hot dogs and applesauce. They had been carefully packaged and the reason for this was to conduct a controlled experiment on food in space. And then John Young gets out a corned beef sandwich! The dinnertime conversation went as shown below and the whole sandwich incident lasted about 10 seconds. 1 44 01 GG - Let's see, do you want your meal?1 44 04 JY - Yes.
1 44 58 JY - Hot dog! Good old food. 1 47 17 GG - Let me have some of that juice when you get done. 1 52 26 GG - What is it? 1 52 27 JY - Corn beef sandwich. 1 52 28 GG - Where did that come from? 1 52 30 JY - I brought it with me. Let’s see how it tastes. Smells, doesn’t it? 1 52 41 GG - Yes, it’s breaking up. I’m going to stick it in my pocket. 1 52 43 JY - Is it? 1 52 49 JY - It was a thought, anyway. 1 52 51 GG - Yep. 1 52 52 JY - Not a very good one. 1 52 54 GG - Pretty good, though, if it would just hold together. 1 53 13 JY - Want some chicken leg? 1 53 15 GG - No, you can handle that. 1 55 04 Gg - You’re a noisy eater. 1 57 14 JY - That’s not bad for applesauce. 1 57 18 GG - I’ll take a bite of applesauce, if you don’t eat it all. 1 57 40 GG - If we had some pork chops to go with it, we’d be all right. 1 57 41 JY - Yes. |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 02-10-2012 11:49 AM
They spent way too much time back then over a relatively minor incident. Too bad they didn't spend more time looking at the quality control at North American. |
WAWalsh
Member Posts: 809
From: Cortlandt Manor, NY
Registered: May 2000
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posted 02-10-2012 03:02 PM
I wonder how much of the concern on this also went to medical testing and understanding the impact of space travel. At that time, with six mission under its belt, NASA still had a lot to learn. It seemed that they did everything they could to script every moment and astronauts going off scipt, particularly in a new craft, upset the apple cart. |
space4u
Member Posts: 324
From: Cleveland, OH USA
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted 02-11-2012 03:37 PM
I heard James Hansen talk about the fact that John Young really didn't even consider putting the corned beef sandwich incident in the new book "Forever Young." Hansen convinced Young that it really had to be in the book. |
dtemple
Member Posts: 730
From: Longview, Texas, USA
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 02-11-2012 10:48 PM
From what I recall reading about Jim Webb, he was a politically savvy guy. He probably wasn't personally offended by the practical joke, but was surly aware of how politicians can make anything look bad to serve their political purposes. The billions of dollars going to NASA in the '60s was not supported by every congressman; some were looking for any excuse to cut NASA's budget. |
Space Cadet Carl
Member Posts: 225
From: Lake Orion, Michigan
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 02-12-2012 08:41 AM
quote:
Originally posted by fredtrav:
I guess the question that need to be asked is was it on rye with deli mustard?
Getting hungry reading this link? We can assume Wally didn't purchase one of those big, messy jobs with swiss, russian dressing and coleslaw on it. Looking forward to Young's account of this in his new book. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 02-12-2012 11:28 AM
According to Mary Roach the sandwich was 'to go', whatever that might be.By the way, Senator Morse was defeated in 1968 more because of his opposition to the Vietnam war than his opposition to the NASA budget. |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3160
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 02-13-2012 04:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by moorouge:
According to Mary Roach the sandwich was 'to go', whatever that might be.
She probably meant it was "...to boldly go where no sandwich had gone before." |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 02-14-2012 12:52 PM
Is "to go" an American colloquialism (noting the previous two posters locations across the pond)? Or is this just sarcasm? "To go" just means they were taking the sandwich elsewhere to eat it, rather than eating in the restaurant. In this case, I'm sure they wrapped it up tightly to keep it safe and sound until ready to it, instead of just setting on a wrapper and tray. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 02-14-2012 02:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kr4mula:
"To go" just means they were taking the sandwich elsewhere to eat it, rather than eating in the restaurant.
That's what I assumed it meant. Watch too many American movies.  |
mikepf
Member Posts: 444
From: San Jose, California, USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 02-14-2012 06:37 PM
Just out of curiosity, what would be the UK equivalent of our "to go"? I watch a lot of British TV, but don't know if it has come up. Thanks for the cultural exchange. |
ilbasso
Member Posts: 1522
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 02-14-2012 10:40 PM
"take away" |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 02-15-2012 02:15 AM
Could be 'take away' but usually asked 'to eat in or out?'. There is a difference in price too. No doubt another UK member will correct me but think that if you eat 'in' you are charged VAT, but 'out' does not have this charge added.Who was it who said, "Two great nations divided by a common language." |
gleopold
Member Posts: 31
From: Reston, VA, USA
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted 04-04-2012 10:38 AM
quote:
Originally posted by robsouth:
The dinnertime conversation went as shown below and the whole sandwich incident lasted about 10 seconds.
Can you provide a source for this transcript? |
mikej
Member Posts: 481
From: Germantown, WI USA
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 04-04-2012 06:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by gleopold:
Can you provide a source for this transcript?
A quick Google search brings up JSC's Gemini 3 mission transcript page. The "Gemini III Composite Air-to-Ground and Onboard Voice Tape Transcription" link contains the sandwich transcript. |
kyra
Member Posts: 583
From: Louisville CO US
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 04-04-2012 11:55 PM
The sandwich was from Wolfie's Restaurant and Sandwich Shop in Cocoa Beach. This classic New York style Jewish deli was part of the Ramada Inn. Sadly, the last of the Wolfie's chain closed in 2008. The namesake creator Wolfie Cohen passed away in 1986, then what remained of the chain was sold in 1996. John Young was given the reprimand with the remnants of the sandwich in a plastic case on his desk. |
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