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Author
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Topic: Tindallgrams, anyone? Bill Tindall's memos
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music_space
Member Posts: 1179
From: Canada
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-30-2007 07:53 PM
   
Is there anyone out there with a collection of Bill Tindall's Tindallgrams memos? |
atbaird
New Member Posts: 2
From: Auburn, AL, USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 08-30-2007 11:13 PM
I am a doctoral candidate at Auburn University currently writing a biography of Bill Tindall for my dissertation. Tindall wrote over 1,100 memos between 1964 and 1970 for both Gemini and Apollo. There are copies of many of them available in several different archives but there is not a complete set. One of Tindall's friends put together a set of 185 Apollo Tindallgrams just after Bill died in 1995. The University of Houston-Clear Lake Archives has a digitized version of that set on CD. I know that many NASA MSC workers from the Gemini/Apollo years saved copies of various Tindallgrams they received as part of their work but most of the copies I have seen belong to NASA, the National Archives, or UH-Clear Lake. Andrew Baird |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-30-2007 11:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by atbaird:
One of Tindall's friends put together a set of 185 Apollo Tindallgrams just after Bill died in 1995. The University of Houston-Clear Lake Archives has a digitized version of that set on CD.
If there's interest (silly question, I know), I'll be happy to go over to UHCL to make a copy of this set and post it for download from collectSPACE... |
Max Q
Member Posts: 399
From: Whyalla South Australia
Registered: Mar 2007
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posted 08-30-2007 11:28 PM
Please Robert that would be wonderful I have often read about them and would love to read them. |
astroborg
Member Posts: 203
From: Woodbridge, VA, USA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 08-31-2007 06:22 AM
I would like to second that motion, Robert! |
Andy McCulley
Member Posts: 245
From: Lansdale, PA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-31-2007 07:41 AM
I third it. |
randy
Member Posts: 2231
From: West Jordan, Utah USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 08-31-2007 08:44 AM
I fourth it. |
Naraht
Member Posts: 232
From: Oxford, UK
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 08-31-2007 02:45 PM
As for complete sets, I had heard that both John Aaron and Jay Greene had them, but maybe that's not true? |
atbaird
New Member Posts: 2
From: Auburn, AL, USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 08-31-2007 06:23 PM
The printed copies of the 185 Tindallgrams put together in 1995 (they were put in 3 ring binders) are sometimes referred to as complete sets. I've heard several people refer to them that way. However, NASA references show Bill having written over 1,100 memos during Gemini and Apollo alone. The problem with trying to compile a complete set is that apparently no one person or office received them all. Bill's work covered a fairly broad area and although Tindallgrams were dispersed widely both inside and out of MSC, they often were addressed to specific groups who were dealing with a particular issue. People who held onto the copies they received probably think of them as complete or nearly complete sets but I don't believe that is the case.
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Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-31-2007 06:30 PM
As it turns out, the NASA-UHCL archives had not one, but three separate collections of Tindallgrams scanned and available. I haven't had a chance to check how they overlap (or if they overlap), but I would appreciate any help doing so. Ultimately, I'd like to add these to a new section of cS Resources so that they are easily accessible, but perhaps they can first be merged in a such way to present one set of documents.In the meantime, here are the Tindallgrams: |
wickball
Member Posts: 107
From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 08-31-2007 07:38 PM
Robert, this is some fascinating reading, makes you feel like you are right there, in the middle of the action of the time. And I think, wow, this was 40 years ago, walking on the moon! Then modern day reality sets in and it seems we are so far away from ever being able to achieve this again. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-31-2007 07:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by wickball:
This is some fascinating reading, makes you feel like you are right there, in the middle of the action of the time.
The Tindallgrams are one of the great resources for space history enthusiasts.For the benefit of those previously unfamiliar with Tindall and his memos, the following is the foreword by Malcolm Johnson that is included with the second collection linked above: The enclosed collection of memoranda were written by Howard W. "Bill" Tindall, Jr., the former Director of Flight Operations at NASA's Manned Spacecraft Center in Houston. They document key technical decisions made between 1966 and early 1970 for all unmanned and manned flights through Apollo 13, and became widely know as "Tindallgrams." Astronauts, flight controllers, and engineers took part in this planning, and many have lamented that they had lost track of their copies, so we have bound this set together for them. As Buzz Aldrin remembered, "Bill had a brilliant way of analyzing things and the leadership that gathered diverse points of view with the utmost fairness." In 1966, Apollo Spacecraft Program Manager George Low made Tindall responsible for all guidance and navigation computer software development by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Bill quickly grasped the key issues and clearly characterized the associated pros and cons, sometimes painfully for us, but his humor, friendliness, and ever-constructive manner endeared him to all of us. In 1967, Low put Tindall in charge of a group called Mission Techniques, which was designed to bring together hardware development, flight crew procedures, mission roles, and spacecraft and control center computer programming. According to former MSC Director Christopher Kraft, "Those meetings were the hardened core of Apollo as far as operations planning was concerned. That's where the famous Tindallgrams came from." He continued, "It would be difficult for me to find anyone who contributed more individually to the success of Apollo than Bill Tindall." Those of us who took part in those meetings and other interactions with Bill will always appreciate another aspect of his contribution... he made it a lot of fun! |
bruce
Member Posts: 917
From: Fort Mill, SC, USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 08-31-2007 10:25 PM
Oh, this is marvelous stuff! |
Max Q
Member Posts: 399
From: Whyalla South Australia
Registered: Mar 2007
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posted 09-01-2007 01:14 AM
Thanks mate, I look forward to many happy hours reading. |
Naraht
Member Posts: 232
From: Oxford, UK
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 09-01-2007 03:14 AM
quote:
Originally posted by atbaird:
The printed copies of the 185 Tindallgrams put together in 1995 (they were put in 3 ring binders) are sometimes referred to as complete sets.
Ah, thanks! That makes a lot of sense. I will very much look forward to reading the results of your work on Bill Tindall, if you make them available to the public. A fascinating character who definitely deserves more attention than he's gotten. |
randy
Member Posts: 2231
From: West Jordan, Utah USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 09-01-2007 08:45 AM
This is great! Thanks, Robert! |
stsmithva
Member Posts: 1940
From: Fairfax, VA, USA
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 09-02-2007 07:39 AM
This is yet another example of how amazing collectSPACE is, usually for the most part because of Robert's work. One member asks about something, within hours another member has mentioned that they are writing a dissertation on the subject and provides information, and by the next day Robert has done the research to be able to provide links to exactly what the first member (and many of the rest of us) will enjoy reading. |
micropooz
Member Posts: 1532
From: Washington, DC, USA
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 09-02-2007 08:54 AM
I gotta tell one Tindall story. Tindall was one of the speakers at the Apollo 8 25th anniversary celebration at JSC in 1993, before his work was commonly known. After the talks, I asked him to autograph a cover for me. Humble as always, he said "You want ME to autograph your cover? Are you sure?". After he got done, someone else asked him for an auto and he said "Now you are the second person who has ever asked me for an autograph - and there's the first" (pointing at me)! A truly humble and humorous man... |
capcom9
Member Posts: 48
From: Wesley Hills, New York
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 09-02-2007 07:34 PM
Well, I've got my Fall & Winter reading cut out for me! These are a treasure trove that I've dreamed about reading, and can't wait to dig in! Thank you so much!! |
music_space
Member Posts: 1179
From: Canada
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 09-03-2007 08:50 PM
Yeah, and winter is long here close to Montreal, Canada...I'm back to cS from a few days' vacation, and I get to read all this near instantaneous development... Fantastic! Thanks to everyone involved, I am really happy. Now I will gladly write a thanks (but-I'm-good-now-thanks) note to other parties I inquired to the same day about this (NASA History, plus "Apollo"s co-author Charles Murray who has a set in his collection). I will refer them to cS to see for themselves, of course! |
spacechild
New Member Posts: 5
From: allen, texas
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 09-03-2007 10:43 PM
The second Tindallgram upload was pulled together by Malcolm Johnson following my father, Bill Tindall's death in 95. Malcolm made a copy for my mother and in turn all of his kids received a copy. I believe my mother already had a full set of Tindallgrams that dad had saved but her set obviously didn't have the nice forward written by Malcolm. These do make good reading. Also wanted to add, it really is wonderful to find that so many others appreciated my dad and his wonderful sense of humor.  Happy reading! |
astroborg
Member Posts: 203
From: Woodbridge, VA, USA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 09-04-2007 06:40 AM
Thanks Robert! This is great to actually have copies of these for all of us to read.Bill Tindall was truly a national treasure! |
spaceman1953
Member Posts: 953
From: South Bend, IN
Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 09-04-2007 04:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by stsmithva:
This is yet another example of how amazing CollectSPACE is, usually for the most part because of Robert's work.
Ditto, Steve. THIS is worth the price of admission!Amanda has reading material for the REST of her teenage years! Thanks, Robert, many, many thanks! |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 09-04-2007 05:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by spacechild:
Also wanted to add, it really is wonderful to find that so many others appreciated my dad and his wonderful sense of humor.
I would like to add my own appreciation for your participation as part of this thread. It really brought a smile to my face when I read your post and realized the full circle we've created by this one discussion. It's moments like these, as well as the support shared by our members, that serves to justify the time and work that goes into producing collectSPACE. |
music_space
Member Posts: 1179
From: Canada
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 09-04-2007 09:58 PM
I second that, Robert. In addition to the intellectual stimulation, the friendships and the bettering of its members' lives, through its interactions cS provides opportunities for genuine, deep spiritual inspiration. |
spacechild
New Member Posts: 5
From: allen, texas
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 09-05-2007 10:51 AM
Thanks, it brought a smile to my face when I googled late one weekend night and found this enthusiasm about my dad and his tindallgrams. I know that he would be humbled by the attention. My children were very young when my father passed. I am so thankful that I have these to share with them so hopefully they can get an idea of who he was. I smile when I read some of the grams because there is so much of my father's personality in them. Charles Murray got it right when he described my dad and his love for his work like a child going to the circus. He truly did love his job. He would say, I'm not working, I'm playing and I truly believe that is how he felt. Thanks again for keeping him alive.
Tiki Tindall Williams |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 09-05-2007 11:32 AM
As a former member of the JSC history office, I had the pleasure of researching and interviewing a fair number of the former Flight Ops guys, both on-console and behind the scenes. Your father was one guy who was spoken about by them with universal reverence...and irreverence! We had great regret that the JSC Oral History Project started a couple of years too late to interview Bill Tindall (not to mention many others!). His Tindallgrams were the stuff of legend and were also useful resources for our research. I'm glad to see you dropping by here to say hi and be sure to let your children know their grandfather has the respect of many people, even those who never had the chance to know him.Out of curiosity, does the copy your father saved and gave to your mother match the set given to you? As others have pointed out, he wrote many memos for different departments, making collecting a complete set very challenging. I would think the ones he saved himself would be the most complete. |
spacechild
New Member Posts: 5
From: allen, texas
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 09-05-2007 11:57 AM
Again, Thanks. I wish you would have had an opportunity to interview him too. I know you would have enjoyed it. He was always quite entertaining. I have read quite a few of the oral histories. I have found them interesting. They are a great resource of information. You should be proud of your work. Charles Murray and Catherine Cox interviewed my dad for their Apollo book and I believe recorded the interviews. I wonder if they kept the tapes. My mother has a copy of the grams (185 pages) that Malcolm pulled together. In addition to that she had/has Tindallgrams that dad saved. I will have to ask her exactly what she has and will get back with you. I'm curious now too. |
spacechild
New Member Posts: 5
From: allen, texas
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 09-05-2007 12:55 PM
Well, it turns out my mother has all of the originals. My dad's wonderful secretary Judy Wyatt created 6 binders full of my dad's NASA correspondance. I will see about making these available in the future. |
garymilgrom
Member Posts: 1966
From: Atlanta, GA
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 09-05-2007 01:34 PM
This is superb. Thank you Robert (and Tiki). |
music_space
Member Posts: 1179
From: Canada
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 09-05-2007 03:13 PM
I've done some follow-up with Andrew Baird, the doctoral candidate who is in the final leg of writing Howard "Bill" Tindall's biography.Of course, I asked him "Why Tindall?" Here's his reply (with permission): My major advisor at Auburn University is James R. Hansen, who recently published the first authorized biography of Neal Armstrong entitled First Man. I had the pleasure of assisting with some of the research for the book. During one of Dr. Hansen's first interviews with Armstrong, the question came up as to who Dr. Hansen should interview for the book. Armstrong replied that if Bill Tindall were still living, he would be the most worthy individual from NASA to interview. Andrew T. Baird's own biography. |
Naraht
Member Posts: 232
From: Oxford, UK
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 09-05-2007 04:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by spacechild:
I will see about making these available in the future.
Wonderful. There are many, many people who would appreciate this greatly. Thank you for sharing this, and for helping to keep your father's memory alive. |
music_space
Member Posts: 1179
From: Canada
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 09-05-2007 08:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
As it turns out, the NASA-UHCL archives had not one, but three separate collections of Tindallgrams scanned and available. I haven't had a chance to check how they overlap (or if they overlap), but I would appreciate any help doing so.
Well, I have started doing just that. I am working on an Excel Table of contents. In version 0 of this document, you'll find Johnson's TOC for tindalgramms02.pdf with corrected page numbers.Email me to get a copy of this. |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 09-06-2007 10:50 AM
I, for one, think it's a stunning find to know that a truly complete set is out there. Depending on how much time and effort you (Tiki) feel like putting into this project, I'd highly recommend you make a copy available to the JSC archives at the University of Houston-Clear Lake. They have copies of some of the lesser sets and their own database lists some 700+ documents authored by Tindall (obviously not all "Tindallgrams") from Apollo-Shuttle (the earlier stuff is mostly at NARA-Ft. Worth). The archivist there, Shelly Kelly, is among the best I've ever worked with and I'm sure she'd be glad to get and/or help make a copy from you. Alternately, I'm sure you'd find some willing helpers on cS to scan in copies. |
spacechild
New Member Posts: 5
From: allen, texas
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 09-06-2007 11:02 AM
My mother and I live in the Dallas area so Ft. Worth would not be too bad of a drive. That's a good idea. This really is history worth preserving. |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 09-06-2007 12:09 PM
Just to clarify - Shelly Kelly is the NASA JSC archivist at UHCL in Houston. They have the majority of JSC's material, including all of its oral histories. A couple decades ago, they moved their Mercury and Gemini materials to the National Archives (NARA) in Ft. Worth because of space issues (they've since moved into new facilities). I'm not sure who runs the NARA facility in Ft. Worth these days. It used to be a guy named Kent, who was a great NASA supporter, but he has since retired. The head archivist was named Meg, but I don't know if she's still there, either. The Houston folks are very easy to deal with for anyone wanted to donate material and they're very good at making it available to researchers. I'm not sure what NARA's policies are on accessioning things from the public. Possibly someone here will know. In any case, NARA is a bit more Byzantine in its procedures than NASA is. |
dsky
New Member Posts: 1
From:
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 04-21-2008 05:59 PM
I was wondering if there has been any update regarding the collection of original Tindallgrams made available by the family of Bill Tindall. I discovered late this post and maybe the answer is elsewhere (in which case I apologize).By the way, it has been a privilege e-meeting relatives of Tindall: their attitude on this topic and the value they have of the work of their father says a lot about the man itself. |
HDavid
New Member Posts: 1
From: Carlisle, MA, USA
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted 09-16-2011 08:27 AM
Bill could write it down in longhand just as it was said in our meetings. What a talent. But consider... that those 1100 or so Tindallgrams were typed up on a manual typewriter day after day, page after page primarily by Bill's secretary Judy Wyatt. She deserves a medal! |
Buel
Member Posts: 653
From: UK
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 09-10-2013 06:50 AM
Please could I ask what happened regarding the potential scans of the complete set of Tindallgrams? I'm fascinated to know. |
garymilgrom
Member Posts: 1966
From: Atlanta, GA
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 09-10-2013 08:10 AM
The 10th post down has links to many (all?) of these. It's a few years old so good luck. |
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