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Topic: What was the goal before Kennedy's speech?
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mjanovec Member Posts: 3811 From: Midwest, USA Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 07-23-2009 12:48 PM
We all know that the Mercury program had started up and Shepard had flown by the time Kennedy made his famous speech, setting the goal of the moon landing before the end of the decade. I was wondering if, prior to that, NASA had a defined (or preliminary) set of goals for space exploration beyond the Mercury program. If Kennedy hadn't established the moon landing goal, was there a natural trajectory that NASA was following for space exploration...or were they waiting for mandates from the president on what to do next?I'd be curious to see if there is any pre-Kennedy speech NASA literature showing the envisioned future for spaceflight. |
Michael Davis Member Posts: 530 From: Houston, Texas Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 07-23-2009 01:10 PM
What a great question. We all know the story about Kennedy's challenge - post Bay of Pigs politics, finding the goal that we could pick to have an opportunity to beat the Russian's, etc.But what if he had not made that commitment? My own guess is that we would have spent much lower amounts of money to try to match the Russians in low earth orbit technology. Given that the political will for the moon landings was so short lived, it's hard to image that we would have gotten to the moon in 1969. Or maybe ever. |
carmelo Member Posts: 1051 From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 07-23-2009 07:40 PM
Future NASA goals in late 1960: - Mercury: 1961-1964, sub-orbital and orbital.
- Apollo: from 1965, only orbital missions (goals: EVA, rendezvous, docking, long duration mission).
- Space station from 1967-68. The station is a inflatable wheel.
- Apollo circumlunar mission in 1970.
- Mid-late 70s: A man on the moon (direct with Nova rocket, or with a moon tug from the orbital station.
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MCroft04 Member Posts: 1647 From: Smithfield, Me, USA Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 07-23-2009 09:39 PM
I recall reading that the manned space program would end after the Mercury flights. There was no goal. |
Delta7 Member Posts: 1527 From: Bluffton IN USA Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 07-23-2009 10:08 PM
I tend to agree. I remember reading somewhere that the Mercury astronauts all initially expected to return to active military duty after their Mercury assignment ended. There was no long-term goal beyond putting a man into orbit before the Russians. |
mjanovec Member Posts: 3811 From: Midwest, USA Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 07-23-2009 10:17 PM
I'm wondering if manned spaceflight would really have stopped after Mercury if the Russians continued to fly. I would think most people would have found that unacceptable. But then again, how much did Kennedy's speech force the Russians to move their program ahead as well? Surely they couldn't sit back and watch while NASA pushed on towards the moon. |
Colin Anderton Member Posts: 154 From: Great Britain Registered: Jan 2005
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posted 07-24-2009 01:31 AM
I agree - a great question.Once again, I would suggest a look through the Pathe and Movietone websites. You'll find there was a general expectation that man was heading for the moon as soon as the Space Age began with the launch of Sputnik 1. I strongly recommend these sites. I just did a search one year at a time, and picked out all the space-related reels. It's a great educational experience for anyone that wasn't around at the time. And - as I've mentioned in earlier posts - you can find some real little gems in there. |
jimsz Member Posts: 618 From: Registered: Aug 2006
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posted 07-24-2009 06:08 AM
I think if Kennedy would not have needed to focus attention off his failed foreign policies the US space program would have simply limped along and eventually conceding space to the USSR. Actually, it is very similar to what the US space program has been doing since Apollo.Kennedy became lucky that he chose the space program to focus attention on as that is what he is remembered for. Had it not been for that history would not look kindly on the man or his Presidency. He got lucky. |
ejectr Member Posts: 1758 From: Killingly, CT Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 07-24-2009 06:28 AM
How much foreign policy can a president have to divert attention from after being in office for 4 months? He took office in January 1961 and made his speech of going to the moon in May 1961. Your statement makes no sense. That's like blaming Obama for the current economy.As far as the Bay of Pigs is concerned, thank the guy who started NASA for that one. Kennedy just inherited the whole thing. |
garymilgrom Member Posts: 1966 From: Atlanta, GA Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 07-24-2009 06:30 AM
quote: Originally posted by jimsz: I think if Kennedy would not have needed to focus attention off his failed foreign policies the US space program would have simply limped along and eventually conceding space to the USSR. Actually, it is very similar to what the US space program has been doing since Apollo.
I don't agree. I don't think the US has conceded anything, in fact I think we continue to lead the way in space, although we are approaching a critical junction. quote: He got lucky.
And I don't think lucky can be used in any context with a person killed in his prime. We have no idea what JFK would have done had he not been murdered. |
Richard Easton Member Posts: 175 From: Winnetka, IL USA Registered: Jun 2006
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posted 07-24-2009 07:04 AM
quote: Originally posted by ejectr: As far as the Bay of Pigs is concerned, thank the guy who started NASA for that one. Kennedy just inherited the whole thing.
Yes but Kennedy modified the plan with the result that it was less likely to be successful. |
Michael Davis Member Posts: 530 From: Houston, Texas Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 07-24-2009 07:37 AM
quote: Originally posted by ejectr: How much foreign policy can a president have to divert attention from after being in office for 4 months?
This is just not true. The Bay of Pigs fiasco was seen as an extreme embarrassment for the Kennedy administration. Allen Dulles and a couple of his Deputies were forced to resign from the CIA. And the Kennedy administration had made substantial changes to the original plan (including the elimination of close air support). Fair or not, the Bay of Pigs was seen as a fiasco for the new administration and they were absolutely looking for winnable goals to divert attention from it. The space race was one of goals.As to who history would eventually judge to be the primary originator of the plan -- Eisenhower or Kennedy -- that was of little comfort to a young administration afraid of being seem as weak by the U.S. public and international enemies. |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 43576 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 07-24-2009 08:02 AM
The topic of this thread is what NASA's goals were before being challenged to "choose the Moon" by President Kennedy... |
carmelo Member Posts: 1051 From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 07-24-2009 09:08 AM
quote: Originally posted by MCroft04: I recall reading that the manned space program would end after the Mercury flights. There was no goal.
Incorrect: At the opening of the conference on 28 July 1960, Dryden announced that "the next spacecraft beyond Mercury will be called Apollo. |
aneedell Member Posts: 66 From: Washington, DC Registered: Mar 2004
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posted 07-24-2009 11:49 AM
See also: NASA Long Range Plan, 1959 ------------------ Allan Needell Space History Division National Air and Space Museum |
xlsteve Member Posts: 392 From: Holbrook MA, USA Registered: Jul 2008
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posted 07-24-2009 12:55 PM
So seemingly, Kennedy's speech didn't alter the goals. It just compressed the timeline, and increased the focus on a lunar landing. |
MCroft04 Member Posts: 1647 From: Smithfield, Me, USA Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 07-24-2009 07:33 PM
I think it depends on whether you are looking for official goals, or what many hoped would happen. There were plans, but not endorsed by the white house until Kennedy set the moon goal. For example, Von Braun had plans to go to Mars, but they were his plans. |
kr4mula Member Posts: 642 From: Cinci, OH Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 07-27-2009 10:57 AM
I wonder if NASA had taken a more circumspect approach to its space program, would the Air Force's manned space program have fared better? There was clearly some redundancy and competition for funding, so perhaps the Air Force would've had a greater rationale to continue in lieu of a huge NASA program. On the other hand, the technological arguments that spy satellites were doing the job intended for "blue" astronauts perhaps outweigh the other factors. |
moorouge Member Posts: 2458 From: U.K. Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 07-28-2009 02:16 PM
This is a digest of a much fuller article I wrote in 1990 and was published in the UK that year. It was my attempt to draw attention to the fact that there were other factors at play in the decision to go to the Moon and that perhaps JFK is not the person who deserves the credit. To many, America's decision to go to the Moon came with the announcement by President Kennedy in May 1961. This is not quite true as moves were afoot to go to the Moon before this public announcement.The US Congress had before it proposals from the infant NASA and approved by the House Space Committee to send "... a manned expedition to the Moon before the end of the decade .." whilst the 1960 Presidential election campaign was in full swing. This had come about as a direct result of the work of the Goett Committee in 1959. To be fair though, the Moon landing was the third of their main recommendations, coming after the establishment of a space station. However, there is some evidence to suggest that NASA at this time felt sufficiently strongly about the Moon landing objective to pursue it without Congressional approval and was prepared to consider the option of using funds already allocated for the development of a new 'super' booster to do so. If one is looking for a birthday for Apollo, then it has to come in this period of planning by the scientists of the space community. Abe Silverstein (Head of the Office of Space Flight Programmes) received in mid-October 1960 a memo from George Low in which he repeated proposals rejected in 1959. The second of these informed Silverstein that Low had formed a group to establish the ground rules for a manned landing on the Moon. At the bottom Silverstein scrawled 'OK'. To many this became Apollo's birth certificate. At this moment the Moon landings became a definite goal. All that was needed was a political commitment to ensure the funds. As far as the space programme in general was concerned the 1960 Presidential election did not look at all promising. Eisenhower had set out the Republican policy with his dismissal of Sputnik as "..a mere bauble ..". There was no evidence to suggest that his nominated successor, Richard Nixon, thought otherwise. Nor did the young Democrat contender promise more. It is widely recognised that Kennedy knew little about space nor was concerned about rectifying that deficiency. In fact, he had plans to disband the National Aeronautics and Space Council should he be elected. With this in mind it is no wonder that NASA spirits dropped almost out of sight after the election as Kennedy appointed Jerome Wiesner as his Special Assistant on scientific matters. It was a committee headed by this same Wiesner that issued a report that included the words, "We should stop advertising Mercury as our major objective in space activities. Indeed, we should make an effort to diminish the significance of this programme." [Mercury was the first American manned space programme and success was vital to any further funding for future manned programmes or progress towards reaching the Moon.] In a perverse sort of way it was this lack of interest by Kennedy and his seeming acceptance of the Wiesner Report that saved Apollo. First, it meant that no scientist was prepared to come forward to take on the job of NASA Administrator - a political appointment. More by luck than judgement eventually the choice fell on an extremely capable politician-manager named James E. Webb. The second stroke of good fortune was that the new Vice-President, Lyndon Baines Johnson, was fascinated by space flight. He actively opposed Kennedy on his plans to disband the NASC and was prepared to use his power as Chairman of the threatened Council to do so. Nor was Johnson a man likely to allow a trifling matter such as the Wiesner Report to stand in his way. So, at a stroke, NASA gained the two men most likely to keep its ambitions afloat. Both were widely experienced in the deviousness necessary to achieve their goals in the political climate prevailing in Washington in those early months of 1961. There are other factors to consider before one begins to make value judgements on a meeting held on 14th April 1961 when the decision was made to send America to the Moon. Kennedy was the youngest President elected; he was the first Catholic; he scrapped home by the narrowest ever margin in the popular vote. If he was to stand any chance at all of serving a second term he had to ensure the 'southern vote' and he had to make good his promise of boosting a depressed American economy. His first months in office brought him up against a Congress not entirely sharing his vision of a 'New Frontier' that meant head on clashes with Unions, racists and foreign governments. It is worth noting that throughout Kennedy's campaign when speaking about the 'New Frontier' space was not on the agenda. However, the young President was determined and astute. Perhaps his greatness lay in his ability to read a situation, capture a mood and turn both to his advantage. In April 1961 the American people were smarting under the indignity of the Gagarin flight and coming second to the Russians yet again. There was to follow the Bay of Pigs. The voters might not have swallowed increasing Government spending to tackle the Kennedy dream of a freer, more equal society but they would countenance the expenditure of less than one half a percent of the gross national product if it meant restoring American pride. Initially it mattered little to Kennedy whether this involved going to the Moon. To sanction Apollo would him the excuse to spend Federal funds in boosting the economy of the areas where he needed votes and it gave those same voters a visible example of his desire to restore American pride. There should be no surprise that the meeting on 14th April 1961 that made the decision to send America to the Moon lasted for only five minutes. Everything was in place. NASA had the plan ready and in Webb and Johnson they had the political manipulators to see it through. Kennedy was persuaded to give the go-ahead as the events of April 1961 made it sensible to seize the moment. In May he made the speech that made the decision public. Perhaps it would be more interesting to hypothesize on whether America would have gone to the Moon in Kennedy's administration anyway. There are strong arguments to suggest that at some point he would need a grandiose scheme to get support for his political ideals. If this is true, then Apollo should be compared not to Columbus but to the 'New Deal' and the Tennessee Valley Scheme of another Democratic President who came to office facing the same problems as Kennedy. In many respects the two are alike. Both were necessary as high profile projects to concentrate national pride and both were overtaken by wars that altered national perspectives and cast doubts on the wisdom of concentrating huge amounts of money on narrow objectives. Was the Moon decision political opportunism driven by a sense of self preservation, or was it really made from higher ideals? Whatever history finally decides, it is a pity that Lyndon Johnson, on record as the one real enthusiast for Apollo in the Kennedy political team, is given so little credit for preserving the structure that made the Moon landing possible. No wonder he felt somewhat slighted in his later years. |
carmelo Member Posts: 1051 From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 07-29-2009 11:36 AM
quote: Originally posted by aneedell: See also: NASA Long Range Plan, 1959
1965-1967 First launching in a program leading to manned circumlunar flight and to permanent near-earth space station. Beyond 1970 Manned flight to the moon |
MCroft04 Member Posts: 1647 From: Smithfield, Me, USA Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 08-23-2009 09:49 AM
From David Harland's "Paving the Way for Apollo 11", he writes on page 71; "Accordingly, within days (in 1958 after NASA was assigned the task of exploring space for scientific purposes) Keith Glennan established the Space Task Group at the Langley Research Center to manage Project Mercury, which was to launch a man into orbit as soon as possible. This was not exactly what President Eisenhower had in mind, but he saw it as a one-off venture." |
Tykeanaut Member Posts: 2216 From: Worcestershire, England, UK. Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 01-10-2010 06:38 AM
Perhaps naively I always thought that JFK's famous speech was the first mention of a moon landing. However, I have just read that this was first muted on July 2, 1960 by the US Scientific and Space Committee when they proposed a manned expedition to the moon before 1970.(Source: The Invasion of the Moon 1969 by Peter Ryan) Editor's note: Threads merged |
moorouge Member Posts: 2458 From: U.K. Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 01-10-2010 06:45 AM
A Moon landing was muted earlier than that quoted by Peter Ryan. See my earlier post. |
WAWalsh Member Posts: 809 From: Cortlandt Manor, NY Registered: May 2000
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posted 01-14-2010 03:10 PM
It is a great question. The response could well be "whatever the administration of the moment thought it should be." Certainly, we have an established history of reduced or unaccomplished political goals for space and so it is possible that we would still be waiting for the first steps on the Moon. With the possible exception of the Carter Administration, each administration since Johnson has announced its new short and long term goals for NASA. The shuttle program of the past 20 years is far different from what the Nixon administration proposed. The ISS has little to do with the space station that President Reagan proposed in 1983. The programs of the Bush and Clinton administrations never launched and I am not holding my breathe on the proposed return to the Moon from President Bush. Conversely, if you solely look at von Braun's life long goal of sending men to the Moon and the geopolitical realities of the Cold War, it may be that the lunar program would have developed on its own (say, if Nixon had defeated Kennedy in 1960). In truth, either path is possible. |