Author
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Topic: Apollo 11 lunar module off-course landing
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Jim_Voce Member Posts: 273 From: Registered: Jul 2016
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posted 07-26-2016 11:55 PM
Everyone here knows about the dicey last minute landing of Neil Armstrong in the Sea of Tranquility. When the Eagle was coming down for its landing, it was coming down into a field of boulders. So Armstrong hovered for a clearing. The field of boulders was unexpected and came about because the Eagle's descent from lunar orbit was off-course. Does anyone recall what caused the Eagle to be off course after it separated from the command module? |
Jim Behling Member Posts: 1488 From: Cape Canaveral, FL Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 07-27-2016 11:53 AM
The LM fly around inspection. |
Headshot Member Posts: 891 From: Vancouver, WA, USA Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 07-27-2016 12:24 PM
Didn't sloshing in Eagle's propellant tanks slightly shift its center of gravity and contribute to the trajectory error? I believe baffles were added to Intrepid's tanks by the time Apollo 12 flew. |
cycleroadie Member Posts: 452 From: Apalachin, NY USA Registered: May 2011
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posted 07-27-2016 12:39 PM
An article in Popular Mechanics where they talked about the mission with many of those involved included this quote from Steve Bales, the Guidance Officer for the mission: The lunar module could do a lot of things independently, but it had to rely on people on the ground to tell the computer where it was starting on its landing position. On the backside of the moon there had been some venting — some perturbations unknown to us. The time we gave them to light the engine was about 4 or 5 seconds late. |
nasamad Member Posts: 2141 From: Essex, UK Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 07-27-2016 12:58 PM
I thought there was still some pressure in the tunnel when Eagle and Columbia separated and this caused Eagle to separate a couple of mph faster than planned. May be I'm thinking of a different mission, I'm going to look it up when I get the chance (unless some nice person gets and shares the answer here first). |
Jeff Member Posts: 483 From: Fayetteville, NC, USA Registered: May 2009
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posted 07-27-2016 02:50 PM
You're thinking of the correct mission. From the pages of the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal Gene Kranz states: The principal error induced by maneuvering of the spacecraft was, however, the incomplete vent of the tunnel propagated over one orbit after separation. We made a change in all future missions to get a MCC go-nogo on tunnel delta P before giving the crew a Go to undock. |
Jeff Member Posts: 483 From: Fayetteville, NC, USA Registered: May 2009
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posted 07-27-2016 02:54 PM
Here's the complete statement from Gene again taken from the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal. In a 2002 e-mail, Kranz elaborates, "Floyd's note was correct on the velocity-induced position error at the start of the descent. There were several interrelated navigation problems, i.e. known deficiencies in the R2 lunar (gravitational) potential model, down-track (along the flight path toward the landing site) and cross-track (left or right, perpendicular to the flight path) propagation errors (errors that start out small but become larger as the flight proceeds), and errors induced by maneuvering of the spacecraft. The principal error induced by maneuvering of the spacecraft was, however, the incomplete vent of the tunnel propagated over one orbit after separation. We made a change in all future missions to get a MCC go-nogo on tunnel delta P before giving the crew a Go to undock. Page 82 of the Apollo 11 post mission report says ...'because of uncoupled attitude maneuvers such as hot fire tests, undocking impulse, station keeping, sublimator operation and possible tunnel and cabin venting. The net effect of these perturbations was a sizeable down-range miss.' To my recollection, the trajectory reconstruction determined that with the exception of the tunnel venting, most of the other perturbations were essentially self canceling. Further the post mission review indicated that the delta P gauge was too gross, the markings misleading and the tunnel had to be vented earlier in the timeline and the valve left in the tunnel vent position rather than returned to off. |
nasamad Member Posts: 2141 From: Essex, UK Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 07-27-2016 03:38 PM
Thanks Jeff, I was trying to look on the ALSJ myself as its my first place to look for this kind of info but the formatting of the site doesn't agree with my iPad for some reason.Nice to know my mind is working better than my iPad though. |
oly Member Posts: 971 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2015
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posted 07-28-2016 01:26 AM
This article also gives reference to the higher than expected velocity and other causes: As soon as Eagle had disconnected from Columbia, it was propelled faster than planned because of the residual oxygen expelled from the airlock. As a result, the LM overflew the planned landing site. |
Cozmosis22 Member Posts: 986 From: Texas * Earth Registered: Apr 2011
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posted 10-07-2017 06:09 PM
According to this UPI actual teletype printout during the Apollo 12 mission they had an interesting explanation of the Eagle landing site overshoot. Can't recall this being discussed elsewhere. Any thoughts? Because of Apollo Eleven's four-mile miss, the Apollo 12 flight planners have made some changes.Apollo Eleven's computer information was out of date before its final descent. Armstrong and Aldrin were too busy preparing for the historic touchdown to work up on the computer the information obtained in 16 minutes of radio contact before the landing. Apollo 12 is to have more than 30 minutes of radio contact with the Earth before landing. This, it is said, is plenty of time to feed the latest tracking data into the lunar module's computer. |
Jim_Voce Member Posts: 273 From: Registered: Jul 2016
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posted 04-15-2018 02:03 AM
I have heard it said that the reason Apollo 11 wound up off course when making its lunar landing was due to gravitational fluctuations in the Moon's gravitational field. If this is true, then how does the gravitational flux affect a lunar module making a vertical descent and put it off course?And does anyone know how later lunar landing missions (Apollos 12-17) compensated for these fluctuations? Editor's note: Threads merged. |
oly Member Posts: 971 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2015
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posted 04-15-2018 07:39 AM
As above, you have asked this question in another manner previously. But here goes again. As the amount of gravity acting on the lander varied then the rate that the lander fell towards the surface changed, i.e. more gravity equals fall faster. However, the mascon variation was only part of the reason Apollo 11 landed long. Another contributing factor was the fact that the docking tunnel was not completely vented of all air prior to undocking. The additional push from the air pressure within the tunnel gave an additional push that added to the lander velocity. There were additional factors that have been covered in other posts. What did NASA do to avoid landing long again? They learnt from each previous mission and made adjustments to each mission. |
Jim_Voce Member Posts: 273 From: Registered: Jul 2016
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posted 04-16-2018 05:26 AM
I would like to refine my question which is given that one of the primary reasons for the Apollo 10 mission was to examine the Moon's gravitational fluctuations because they would have an effect on a lunar lander's descent, does anyone know how mission planners for Apollo 11 onward adjusted for or compensated for gravitational fluctuations? Was it done at a software level or at some other level? |
garymilgrom Member Posts: 1966 From: Atlanta, GA Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 04-16-2018 06:46 AM
This (how the software was modified for precise landings) is told fully in the book "Sunburst and Luminary" by Don Eyles. The solution was not simple and evolved over time. This is a fantastic book, well worth reading for this and many other technical details as well as wonderful personal anecdotes from working and living in those times. |
Jim_Voce Member Posts: 273 From: Registered: Jul 2016
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posted 04-18-2018 03:34 AM
Many thanks Gary! |