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  Last Gemini and first Apollo flight together?

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Author Topic:   Last Gemini and first Apollo flight together?
para629
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posted 02-16-2006 01:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for para629   Click Here to Email para629     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have been working for some time on an alternative history book on the race to the moon. I recently read that a NASA administrator remarked in early 1966 that a Gemini Flight and the 1st Apollo mission was being considered to fly at the same time. My thoughts in a what if...

Conrad and Gordon fly a cimcumlunar mission with Gemini. Apollo 1 fire does not occur and is in orbit and rendezvous with the Gemini translunar booster. Provided the aforementioned occurs - would it be feasible for Apollo to send TV pictures of Gemini docking and doing TLI? Also, feasibility of Richard Gordon doing a stand up EVA and transmitting TV pictures during the loop around the moon? I would greatly appreciate any information/insight/comments on my what if.

Tom
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posted 02-16-2006 03:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom   Click Here to Email Tom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If I remember correctly, the original plan was for Apollo 1 to fly in November '66 along with the final Gemini (12).

When hardware problems cropped up in Apollo, the flight was pushed back to February '67 and Gemini 12 went on to fly as previously scheduled.

edmk5000
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posted 02-18-2006 06:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for edmk5000   Click Here to Email edmk5000     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is interesting to think of two programs flying at the same time. I wonder if how "compatible" some of the systems would be in mission control for Gemini and Apollo. For example, the data formats for telemetry and GGC vs AGC guidance computers.

The MMC was capable of handling two simultanious Gemini missions (G6/G7).

I have read that the MMC at Johnson was first used on Gemini 4. I haven't found any info on the net about what changes were made to support Apollo. Or for that matter, it would be interesting to know what changes in equipment were made between Apollo, ASTP, Skylab, and the Shuttle.

From Jenkins' space shuttle book, the MCC was set up to handle two shuttles at the same time.

jasonelam
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posted 10-28-2010 10:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jasonelam   Click Here to Email jasonelam     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I remember a few years ago reading that a joint flight of Gemini 12 and Apollo 1 was considered had delays not developed in the Apollo program. Has anyone else heard of this?

Editor's note: Threads merged.

Delta7
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posted 10-28-2010 11:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Delta7   Click Here to Email Delta7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I know there was some discussion of it as late as early 1966, but as to whether it ever got beyond that stage I don't know.

kr4mula
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posted 10-28-2010 11:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kr4mula   Click Here to Email kr4mula     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hmm, I wonder, if Gemini and Apollo had overlapped, if it would be possible for an Apollo capsule to rescue the Gemini one if it were stranded in space? (A wink and a nudge to an apparently controversial thread on this same Forum...)

moorouge
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posted 10-28-2010 01:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for moorouge   Click Here to Email moorouge     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
MMMMMMMMM!

ilbasso
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posted 10-28-2010 02:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ilbasso   Click Here to Email ilbasso     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And if the Apollo rescue craft was crippled and got into a low enough orbit, could the astronauts have leapt onto a balloon, met up with Joe Kittinger, and then parachuted 120,000 feet to safety?

Hart Sastrowardoyo
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posted 10-28-2010 04:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hart Sastrowardoyo   Click Here to Email Hart Sastrowardoyo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[In a blur of frantic pencil scribbling, sheets of scrap paper flying all over the place]: "4 p.m.! The two trains will meet outside Chicago at 4 p.m.!"

Obviousman
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posted 10-28-2010 06:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Obviousman   Click Here to Email Obviousman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You guys have it all wrong.

Just use the ejection seats!

music_space
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posted 10-28-2010 06:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for music_space   Click Here to Email music_space     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I remember this project being alluded to in a book which I read again this year. Might be Collins' "Carrying the Fire", but more probably "Moonshot".

Skylon
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posted 10-28-2010 09:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Skylon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by music_space:
I remember this project being alluded to in a book which I read again this year. Might be Collins' "Carrying the Fire", but more probably "Moonshot".

The main source I remember was Collins' book.

I guess there is some logic. Flying an Apollo CSM with another active spacecraft would enable a workout of rendezvous procedures and equipment on the Apollo, which it would eventually need to do with a manned Lunar Module.

Frankly, it seems like it'd clutter up two very busy flights, and be more of a PR stunt. Gemini 12 was busy enough with Agena rendezvous and docking, and it also ended up as a test-bed for new EVA techniques (it was not known this would happen though whenever a joint GT-12, AS-204 flight would have been considered). Apollo 1 of course would be pretty packed as it was flying a brand new vehicle.

Of course, Apollo 1 was then also classed as an "open ended" space flight. Something I don't think has ever been considered since.

moorouge
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posted 10-29-2010 02:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for moorouge   Click Here to Email moorouge     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Skylon:
Of course, Apollo 1 was then also classed as an "open ended" space flight. Something I don't think has ever been considered since.

Of course 'open ended' is managementspeak for "We haven't decided what the objectives are yet."

Skylon
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posted 10-29-2010 06:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Skylon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by moorouge:
Of course 'open ended' is managementspeak for "We haven't decided what the objectives are yet."
From Gene Kranz's book: "No one knew how many orbits Apollo 1 would attempt. Grissom, White and Chaffee would have been blazing another path, an open ended mission, a bold departure from the rigid, limited spaceflights of the past. Theirs was to be essentially an engineering flight..."

That reads like "We are going to test as much of the Apollo spacecraft as possible, stay up as long as necessary, unless something goes wrong." Fairly open ended for a space flight.

ilbasso
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posted 10-31-2010 07:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ilbasso   Click Here to Email ilbasso     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In the "what if" department, if MOL had not been canceled, then Apollo and Gemini hardware would have been in space at the same time.

moorouge
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posted 11-01-2010 03:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for moorouge   Click Here to Email moorouge     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Skylon:
That reads like "We are going to test as much of the Apollo spacecraft as possible, stay up as long as necessary, unless something goes wrong." Fairly open ended for a space flight.

By 'open ended' NASA meant a flight for a duration of 'up to 14 days duration'. If the mission objectives were met before then, ending the flight early would be a consideration.

Jay Chladek
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posted 11-01-2010 02:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jay Chladek   Click Here to Email Jay Chladek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Only thing about Apollo 1 was it intended to use a Block 1 spacecraft and those were not designed for lunar missions. They were an engineering hardware stopgap until the Block 2 ships intended for rendezvous and docking were ready to fly. With enough fuel, I am sure one could have done a lunar flyby and maybe an Apollo 8 orbital mission, but I don't even know if Apollo 1 would have had the full flight computer or not and that was pretty necessary for navigation outside of Earth orbit.

Hart Sastrowardoyo
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posted 11-02-2010 07:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hart Sastrowardoyo   Click Here to Email Hart Sastrowardoyo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ilbasso:
In the "what if" department, if MOL had not been canceled, then Apollo and Gemini hardware would have been in space at the same time.

Then what if Apollo Applications was canceled in favor of a lunar-orbiting MOL? No, I won't ask that question....

moorouge
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posted 11-02-2010 12:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for moorouge   Click Here to Email moorouge     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm glad you didn't ask that question. I was going to answer, but now won't.

Hart Sastrowardoyo
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posted 11-02-2010 03:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hart Sastrowardoyo   Click Here to Email Hart Sastrowardoyo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And if the X-20 program had continued, Dyna-Soar would have been available to use as a rescue craft for Apollo (assuming that the crew were stuck in or could make it back to Earth orbit.)

Rusty B
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posted 02-05-2011 07:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rusty B   Click Here to Email Rusty B     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here are links to newspaper articles of the time (in the Google newspaper archive)
that reveal that there were tentative plans to fly Apollo 1 and Gemini 12 in a joint mission: Then as of May 1966, Dr Joel Shea said it was getting too late to change Apollo to conform with Gemini equipment and the Apollo 1/Gemini 12 joint mission probably wouldn't happen.

All times are CT (US)

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