Author
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Topic: Defending Mount Marilyn: Apollo 8 versus IAU
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Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 43576 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 10-03-2013 12:31 AM
As New Scientist reports, when Apollo 8 carried humans to orbit the moon for the first time in December 1968, crew members hoped they would get to pick the names of various lunar features. But the features they chose for their names, and for a lunar mountain, were not selected by the International Astronomical Union (IAU), which has led Jim Lovell and Bill Anders to now protest. ...recent letters to New Scientist from two Apollo astronauts – including Apollo 13 crew member Jim Lovell – show that even blazing a trail into space and setting eyes on off-world features for the first time is no guarantee of success....Anders says he made his feelings clear to the International Astronomical Union, responsible for naming celestial objects. "I wrote to the IAU to try to correct this and even included the flight map. I got brushed off by its bureaucracy – and never got my map back," he writes. Both Lovell and Anders got in touch with us in the wake of our recent story on the IAU's decision to consider public input when naming newly discovered exoplanets and other space objects. When contacted by New Scientist, the IAU said it had been unaware of the controversy and that it is hard to comment on the process given the time that has elapsed. It is possible that NASA, rather than the astronauts, communicated with the IAU over the choice of craters, said a spokesperson. |
mode1charlie Member Posts: 1184 From: Honolulu, HI Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 10-03-2013 03:44 AM
Very disappointing. Hopefully the IAU will correct this historical error. |
bwhite1976 Member Posts: 283 From: Belleville, IL Registered: Jun 2011
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posted 10-03-2013 06:53 AM
This topic has always confounded me. The astronauts of Apollo 8 are the first people in human history to visit the moon and see these craters with their own eyes. They are the first explorers to the moon. Why does the IAU refuse to change these crater names? For goodness sake, a group of people erased Pluto from its planetary status. Another group of people can't change the name of a few craters on the moon? |
Delta7 Member Posts: 1527 From: Bluffton IN USA Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 10-03-2013 08:06 AM
Bureaucracy. The densest matter known to mankind. "And in the end, bureaucracy begat upon itself a black hole of it's own creation, and all that was created ceased to exist." |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 43576 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 10-03-2013 08:35 AM
Jim Lovell was on BBC Radio 5's "Up All Night" recently to discuss the issue. The IAU recently said that it would consider public opinion in future when naming objects - which has prompted Lovell to ask for "Mount Marilyn" to be recognised as an official name. |
fredtrav Member Posts: 1677 From: Birmingham AL Registered: Aug 2010
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posted 10-03-2013 10:14 AM
Simple solution, have NASA and all official produced maps and other materials ignore the IAU and call it Mount Marilyn. If the IAU is relegated to a position of insignificance in this matter, they may have to rethink or risk becoming irrelevant. Of course this could lead to chaos if everyone who found an object named it what they wanted. Who knows, maybe Pluto would become a planet again. |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 43576 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 10-03-2013 10:22 AM
quote: Originally posted by fredtrav: relegated to a position of insignificance
The IAU has 10,000 astronomers as members and more than 70 nations (the United States included) are partners. Even if NASA were for some reason to ignore the IAU, it would not cause the organization or its registry to be insignificant. |
KSCartist Member Posts: 2913 From: Titusville, FL USA Registered: Feb 2005
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posted 10-03-2013 11:23 AM
The IAU may have based the demotion of Pluto from planet status on scientific evidence, I don't know.But to deny the first explorers of the Moon the authority to name landmarks that aided in the landings is short-sighted at best. The IAU are being bullies. I of course have more colorful feelings that I won't post. and give Bill Anders his map back!
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mode1charlie Member Posts: 1184 From: Honolulu, HI Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 10-03-2013 02:26 PM
quote: Originally posted by Robert Pearlman: The IAU has 10,000 astronomers as members and more than 70 nations (the United States included) are partners. Even if NASA were for some reason to ignore the IAU, it would not cause the organization or its registry to be insignificant.
Yes, and the IAU has many good people who had nothing to do with this, would disagree with how it was handled, and will likely be embarrassed. It isn't clear from the article when this happened - I am assuming it was in the late 60s or early 70s? But in any event, it would have been handled by a couple of bumbling administrators, not "the IAU" writ large. Someone get Plait on this — he will know more. |
Lou Chinal Member Posts: 1332 From: Staten Island, NY Registered: Jun 2007
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posted 10-03-2013 04:01 PM
Have the IAU write down there explanation on the back of the map. |
robsouth Member Posts: 769 From: West Midlands, UK Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 10-03-2013 04:22 PM
I am in two minds over this issue. On the one hand explorers have often named features they have discovered, on the other hand the leading nation in exploration at that time would get to name everything, thats why we have Victoria Falls, Ayers Rock and Mount Everest.Some of the features named by the Apollo astronauts are very particular to Apollo or the U.S. for example Boot Hill, Sidewinder Rille and U.S. 1. I wonder how people in the U.S. would respond to names given to features on the moon if the Soviet Union had beaten Apollo to the moon. Also how would the same people respond if China get to Mars and start naming everything in sight. I also think that sometimes the names given to things can be a little frivolous, I often suspect that this is down to scientists trying to be zany and cool but when I hear some of the names given to things I whince. An example of this is some of the names given to some of the features viewed by the Mars rovers. Having said all that I think Marilyn should have her mountain and a few of the names given to features during Apollo have been allocated to other features on the moon elsewhere. Armstrong, Collins, Aldrin, Borman, Lovell, Anders, Grissom, White and Chaffee are all examples of names given to craters that have also been given to the names of craters by the IAU. |
schnappsicle Member Posts: 396 From: Houston, TX, USA Registered: Jan 2012
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posted 10-07-2013 07:04 AM
quote: Originally posted by robsouth: I wonder how people in the U.S. would respond to names given to features on the moon if the Soviet Union had beaten Apollo to the moon.
The Soviets did beat the US to the moon and they did name the lunar features they discovered, including Tsiolkovskiy, Gagarin, Milne and Neujmin. Even the Apollo 15 crew named one of the craters in their landing site Salyut.Yes, explorers have always been free to name the places they discovered. I think the IAU response to this issue shows clear disregard for the people who blazed the trail to the planets. |
robsouth Member Posts: 769 From: West Midlands, UK Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 10-07-2013 05:31 PM
How did the Soviets get their names accepted and yet the Americans didn't?On a different note, I find it surprising that Einstein isn't a more visible crater but I guess that all the nearside craters were named a long time ago. |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 43576 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 10-08-2013 08:58 PM
collectSPACE Defending Mount Marilyn: Astronauts want lunar landmark names recognizedIf Google Maps existed back in 1969 and included directions for navigating to the surface of the moon, Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin might have plugged in "Tranquility Base" and been told to begin their descent by passing over "Mount Marilyn" on their way to mankind's first lunar landing. Entering today a search on the real Google Moon website turns up no lunar features named "Mount Marilyn." It does however, find "Montes Secchi," the label later assigned to the same lunar mountain by the International Astronomical Union (IAU). "You can google 'Mount Marilyn' you know," James Lovell, who piloted the first manned spacecraft to circle the moon and later commanded Apollo 13, told collectSPACE.com, in reference to the overall search engine. "But it was never officially recognized by the IAU." |
randy Member Posts: 2231 From: West Jordan, Utah USA Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 10-09-2013 03:44 AM
As Dr. McCoy so eloquently stated in Star Trek 4, "The burocratic mentality is the only constant in the universe." So true. Let's hope the IAU will let the names given by the crew stand. |
YankeeClipper Member Posts: 622 From: Dublin, Ireland Registered: Mar 2011
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posted 04-10-2015 08:31 AM
Heritage Auctions' May 2015 Space Exploration Signature Auction has a two-page autographed letter signed by Marilyn Lovell in which she discusses the famous Mt. Marilyn lunar landmark. I was pleased to hear from you and your curiosity concerning Mt. Marilyn intrigued me. I was not aware that Norman Mailer revealed this fact in his book. NASA played this thoughtful gesture of my husband down, saying only famous male deceased scientists were named on the moon. Of course this was before woman's lib!! The only other person who gave me credibility was Neil Armstrong. As he was about to land on the moon, he was naming craters, etc. as his check points and he did mention Mt. Marilyn. I was elated. In December, 1968 I went to Cape Kennedy to witness the launch of Apollo 8. The children and I rented an apartment on the beach. A few days before the launch my husband joined us for a short visit. He brought an enlargement of a portion of the moon that was taken up close by an unmanned satellite. It was then he told me about Mt. Marilyn. I was touched by this event. Yes, it was a romantic and emotional gesture for a man who was about to be one of the first men to circle the moon. I might add — Mt. Marilyn is framed and signed by my favorite astronaut. |
jimlovell New Member Posts: 2 From: Registered: Aug 2006
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posted 04-21-2015 12:46 PM
With respect to the comments about "Mt. Marilyn"; some people think "Mt. Marilyn" already had the name "Montes Secchi." That name refers to the Secchi Mountain Range as part of the large crater Secchi. If Mt. Marilyn had a name it probably would be "Mons Secchi Theta." "Mons" means "Mountain." Secchi Theta is the small crater on Mt. Marilyn. I could not find that name after an exhaustive search. Mt. Marilyn is significant because it was the initial point of descent on both Apollo 10 and Apollo 11 missions. With six landings on the near side of the moon, we have no significant recorded landmarks of an unforgettable period of space history. |
onesmallstep Member Posts: 1313 From: Staten Island, New York USA Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 05-18-2015 04:14 PM
The current (June 2015) issue of Astronomy has a nice interview with Jim Lovell, talking about Apollos 8 and 13 — and the controversy over 'Mt. Marilyn.' |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 43576 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 07-27-2017 02:02 PM
On Wednesday (July 26), the International Astronomical Union formally adopted "Mount Marilyn" for the astronaut named feature. The IAU Working Group for Planetary System Nomenclature approved three Apollo 11 landing site names: Mount Marilyn, Little West, and Double. |
David C Member Posts: 1039 From: Lausanne Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 07-27-2017 03:03 PM
Good, I hope there's more to follow. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 07-27-2017 08:46 PM
Apollo 10 photo AS10-28-4165 shows the CSM in lunar orbit over Mount Marilyn. Frame 4165 is actually on Magazine 29. |
Jim_Voce Member Posts: 273 From: Registered: Jul 2016
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posted 08-02-2017 12:13 AM
That is fantastic news. I wonder how it came up among the IAU members and what finally changed their mind.And there is still the issue of three craters that Bill Anders named and the IAU did not recognize. Is that any closer to getting reviewed? |
mode1charlie Member Posts: 1184 From: Honolulu, HI Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 08-02-2017 02:48 AM
Great news, well-deserved, and long overdue.And it also goes to show that the IAU, while slow and conservative, is made up of good people who try to do the right thing. (Eventually.) |
Philip Member Posts: 6002 From: Brussels, Belgium Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 09-14-2017 11:58 AM
Great news indeed, as we'll celebrate 50 years Apollo 8 next year in December 2018. |
Blackarrow Member Posts: 3160 From: Belfast, United Kingdom Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 09-14-2017 03:56 PM
Good news — but it's high time large near-side craters were re-named after Armstrong, Conrad, Shepard, Mitchell, Irwin and Cernan, for starters! |