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Author
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Topic: What is considered more important
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Cougar20
Member Posts: 93
From:
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 02-17-2004 01:04 AM
   
When we landed on the moon in 1969, wasn't the initial landing JFK promised? So wouldn't Aldrin and Armstrong be equally important to history as they landed at the same time? |
Mike Dixon
Member Posts: 1428
From: Kew, Victoria, Australia
Registered: May 2003
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posted 02-17-2004 01:41 AM
"Cougar",In response to your post, they'll both be remembered as the first men to land on the moon, however history will (in all likelihood) continue to place some precedence in recording which astronaut was the first to plant his foot on the moon. Welcome to cS ..... Mike |
FFrench
Member Posts: 3165
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 02-17-2004 11:42 AM
See P. 253 of the revised version of Walt Cunningham's "The All-American Boys" for a nicely summarized opinion on this.FF |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 02-17-2004 12:08 PM
I agree with you Cougar.... what society deems more important isn't always what is more important. We live in a strange world where Paris Hilton is worshipped and Jonas Salk died almost forgotten. Aldrin actually made more contributions toward the success of the Apollo program (his groundbreaking work in the orbital mechanics of spacecraft rendezvous is an example) than Armstrong. But Armstrong was "first" and that's apparently what a lot of people care about. |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2141
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 02-17-2004 02:10 PM
I for one find not the landing on the moon to be the important bit, but the leaving of the Earth's influence to be more defining. There will continue to be many first steps on many different worlds in the future. But there will only ever be one time that man left the cradle of earth. As such I consider Apollo 8 to be the real groundbreaking moment. Adam |
JasonB
Member Posts: 1091
From:
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 02-17-2004 02:16 PM
I've wondered why they didn't just have them both come out and jump off the ladder together. It would have been a nice gesture. I mean, would it really have been so hard to do that? |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2141
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 02-17-2004 02:39 PM
Jason, The important part was the fact that the first landing was made, who was first on the moon was just an afterthought as far as NASA were concerned. To have one waiting at the bottom of the ladder while the other exited the LM would have compromised both the monitoring of the systems of the LM and the safety of the astronauts.
Its the same scenario with the Wright Brothers, It makes no difference to me which one flew the first flight, just the fact that it happened was the turning point. Adam |
Jake
Member Posts: 465
From: Issaquah, WA U.S.A.
Registered: Jun 2002
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posted 02-17-2004 03:16 PM
I like the Mercury days - only one person per capsule...! (Go Gordo!) No doubt about who did what first on their missions... ------------------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home) |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2141
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 02-17-2004 03:33 PM
Shepard did his before the mission even started ! Adam |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 02-17-2004 04:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by nasamad:
the leaving of the Earth's influence to be more defining. There will continue to be many first steps on many different worlds in the future. But there will only ever be one time that man left the cradle of earth. As such I consider Apollo 8 to be the real groundbreaking moment. Adam
I agree completely with you Adam - but apparently we are in the minority. |
Aztecdoug
Member Posts: 1405
From: Huntington Beach
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 02-17-2004 04:02 PM
Okay, I will throw this out there. The most important part is when they safely splashed down. That was trick, getting them there and back safely.That was the work of all three men in the capsule and the thousands back on Earth. I think the plaque read, "For All Mankind." ------------------
Warm Regards Douglas Henry Enjoy yourself and have fun.... it is only a hobby! |
Gilbert
Member Posts: 1340
From: Carrollton, GA USA
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 02-17-2004 04:28 PM
I have always thought Buzz Aldrin and Michael Collins were just as important as Armstrong. And Buzz has done infinitely more to promote the space program in the years since Apollo 11. |
DavidH
Member Posts: 1217
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted 02-17-2004 05:00 PM
I believe Michael Collins agrees with you, Adam, about the importance of Apollo 8.Playing devil's advocate, though, I going to have to disagree. Apollo 11 was the first time a human set foot on a body other than the Earth. I fail to see Apollo 8 as being as historic, since I disagree that it was the first time man left the Earth's influence, in that while they were orbiting another body, that body, was, itself, orbiting Earth. They were under the Moon's influence, but they were still safely in the "Earth system," if you will. Even orbiting the Moon, they were still orbiting the Earth. The first astronauts to leave Earth orbit entirely--now THAT will be a big deal.
(Not to say at all that I don't think A8 was extremely important, extremely impressive, and extremely cool) ------------------
"America's challenge of today has forged man's destiny of tomorrow." - Commander Eugene Cernan, Apollo 17 Mission, 11 December 1972 |
JasonB
Member Posts: 1091
From:
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 02-17-2004 06:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by nasamad:
Jason, The important part was the fact that the first landing was made, who was first on the moon was just an afterthought as far as NASA were concerned. To have one waiting at the bottom of the ladder while the other exited the LM would have compromised both the monitoring of the systems of the LM and the safety of the astronauts.
Its the same scenario with the Wright Brothers, It makes no difference to me which one flew the first flight, just the fact that it happened was the turning point. Adam
I don't see why they couldn't have both come out together. They were both out together soon after landing without compromising anything so why couldn't they have done that to begin with? My point is that with something as enormous as that, why put all the acclaim and honor of being the first on one person when the other is sitting right there?
I know everyone here knows Aldrin , but go out and talk to people and I doubt half the people who know who Neil Armstrong is know who Buzz Aldrin is. Ask someone who was first on the moon, and after they answer ask who was second. Most of them won't know. That's just the way history is-everyone knows who's first. I think that's a shame, especially when something as simple as what I suggested would have changed that forever. I know that's not what those guys were after, but why not let them share the acclaim equally? If there's some practical reason not to do it or impossibility I'd be interested in hearing it.
I think the Wright's are equally revered in history because they together invented, built and flew the first airplane. If Aldrin and Armstrong had invented, built and flew the Apollo capsule I think they both would be seen as equal in history books. As it is now Armstrong enjoys a much higher place in history simply because he was first out. It just seems odd to tell someone "Okay, your crewmates going to make human history while you sit here 10 feet away and watch!" |
dss65
Member Posts: 1171
From: Sandpoint, ID, USA
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted 02-17-2004 09:47 PM
This is not without precedence. Is Edmund Hillary more important than Tenzing Norgay? (Forgive me if I get my spelling wrong.) I think not. If history is not so kind, it should be.By the way, add my name to those who feel that Apollo 8 is, at the very least, underappreciated. If the Soviets had beaten us there (lunar orbit), the debate would still be going. ------------------
Don |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 02-17-2004 10:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dss65:
This is not without precedence. Is Edmund Hillary more important than Tenzing Norgay? (Forgive me if I get my spelling wrong.)
There is a difference. It is not known which one of them stepped on the summit of Everest first. There are only 2 possibilities, they stepped on it together, or one went before the other. But it was decided they would keep it to themselves and never tell. Tenzing Norgay took it to his grave and I have every reason to believe Edmund Hillary will, too. |
dss65
Member Posts: 1171
From: Sandpoint, ID, USA
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted 02-17-2004 10:06 PM
Scott, unless I'm quite mistaken, Tenzing Norgay let it out that Hillary stepped up first.------------------
Don |
fabfivefreddy
Member Posts: 1067
From: Leawood, Kansas USA
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 02-17-2004 10:07 PM
To answer the question- yes Armstrong and Aldrin are both equally important to history. However, Armstrong's first step and his quote "one small step..." is what history remembers the most.
The first of anything is more important to history. Waston and Crick are crdited for discovering DNA, but others were close and missed it by a few weeks.
Armstrong distances himself from his role. He makes a very big deal about how it was a team effort involving thousands of people and lots of money. He does not think he did anything special compared to the other astronauts.
Tahir |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 02-17-2004 11:52 PM
You might be right about that Don. That's just what I had heard and it may have been erroneous. If I am wrong I stand corrected. |
fabfivefreddy
Member Posts: 1067
From: Leawood, Kansas USA
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 02-17-2004 11:59 PM
I have to comment on the Apollo 8 debate. The Apollo 8 mission was IMO the boldest move in NASA history. It was very dangerous and dependent upon untested theories and parts. It was greater than AP-11 in terms of where we were at the time. AP-11 was just a natural progression from that point.
Tahir |
documick
New Member Posts:
From:
Registered:
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posted 02-18-2004 12:58 AM
I totally agree with Tahir and the rest of you who recognize the boldness of Apollo 8 and the huge leap it was from previous missions. As for the Armstrong/Aldrin debate, I was just thinking yesterday about the possibility of Armstrong waiting on the LEM footpad for Aldrin to egress, and then having them jump off together (maybe even splitting the famous quote). But then I thought that while Aldrin deserves the same place in history as Armstrong, so do each of the other Astronauts who carried the ball down the field to position them for the score. As Walt Cunningham said, there were 5 giant steps in landing on the moon (if not more), and the last 50,000 feet was just the last one. [This message has been edited by documick (edited February 18, 2004).] |
Rodina
Member Posts: 836
From: Lafayette, CA
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 02-18-2004 01:23 AM
"Second comes right after first!" - Buzz Aldrin, as himself, on the Simpsons.
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FFrench
Member Posts: 3165
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 02-18-2004 12:23 PM
According to:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/everest/history/norgay2.html Tenzing stated that he was second - by about six feet. So it really didn't matter. FF |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 02-18-2004 02:35 PM
Thanks. Until now I had not known that he ever told. |
nicholas
Member Posts: 65
From: oxford,england
Registered: Jun 2001
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posted 02-19-2004 05:49 AM
In 53 Tenzing Norgay signed documents saying he was first even before they agreed not to say who was first |
nicholas
Member Posts: 65
From: oxford,england
Registered: Jun 2001
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posted 02-19-2004 05:50 AM
In 53 Tenzing Norgay signed documents saying he was first even before they agreed not to say who was first |
nicholas
Member Posts: 65
From: oxford,england
Registered: Jun 2001
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posted 02-19-2004 05:52 AM
In 53 Tenzing Norgay signed documents saying he was first even before they agreed not to say who was first |
Voskhod
Member Posts: 72
From: Oxfordshire, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 02-19-2004 08:51 AM
There was a lot of pressure on Norgay as the Indian nation wanted to want him to have been the first. Certain cartoons were seen with Norgay pulling Hillary up on a rope to the summit etc.
Ed Hillary has said in the last few years that he was indeed the first, so there we have it.
Interesting that as with no photo's of Armstrong on the moon, there are non of Hillary at the summit. As Hillary said it was the wrong place to show Tenzing how to use the camera.
I know what Buzz says now after Apollo 11 that the laning of them both together on the moon is what counts. I feel that this, for him is a fall back story. If not then why did he make a big deal of being the first one out and damaging crew moral. Buzz thought at the time that their was number one and second stands, in racing language, for first of the losers. |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 02-19-2004 09:03 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Voskhod:
I know what Buzz says now after Apollo 11 that the laning of them both together on the moon is what counts. I feel that this, for him is a fall back story. If not then why did he make a big deal of being the first one out and damaging crew moral. Buzz thought at the time that their was number one and second stands, in racing language, for first of the losers.
That's an interesting point you bring up. I also think that the whole "Contact light. Ok engine stop" business (which he included as a beginning quote of one of his later books) strikes me as sort of petty, like him saying that no Neil wasn't the first to say something, I was. Does anyone else get that feeling? |
denem
Member Posts: 141
From: Columbia, SC, USA
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 02-19-2004 10:15 AM
i was just thinking about gene cernan's book - last man on the moon. gene makes a couple of hilarious remarks about buzz's whining or crying or something to that effect. so , if this is the way gene portrays buzz, then how many other astronauts feel the same way? |
Voskhod
Member Posts: 72
From: Oxfordshire, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 02-19-2004 11:03 AM
Yes Scott, the big thing with me is, no pics of Armstrong. Was it just as it has been said, following the flight plan and who should have the camera given the tight time constraints or..... I know Neil didn't say, "hay Buzz take a picture of me'" but did Buzz think, "well if Neil doesn't ask?"
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WAWalsh
Member Posts: 809
From: Cortlandt Manor, NY
Registered: May 2000
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posted 02-19-2004 01:19 PM
I suspect that Armstrong's association with Apollo 11 will be better remembered 100 years from now than Collins' or Aldrin's. Despite a post above, Orville will always be the first; his brother was running alongside for the launch. 400 years after the event, Magellen is remembered for the first circumnavigation of the Earth, even though he did not live through the voyage. Columbus is remembered for leading the voyage that discovered/rediscovered/properPCterm the western hemisphere, although I have no idea who actually first set foot on the beach. Armstrong commanded the mission and made the first footprint on the lunar surface and that will be the point that history will remember, firsts always are.The goal was to send a man to the Moon and return him safely to the Earth. Armstrong and Aldrin achieved that goal and Collins helped to insure the safe return. Personally, I mention all three men as being responsible for meeting the goal, as well as all those back in Houston, those at the Cape and those who made all the preceeding missions which insured Apollo 11's success. Meeting the lunar goal was the sum of thousands of parts. In the end, while Neil and Buzz were the first to land on the Moon, Armstrong was the first to set foot upon the Moon. You list either both men or just Armstrong, depending on which first you wish to use. As to the 8 v. 11 debate, both were unique. Apollo 8, however, remains my favorite. |
astronut
Member Posts: 969
From: South Fork, CO
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 02-19-2004 06:43 PM
Gang,
Without a doubt Apollo 8 was the most important mission in manned space flight...ever. That moment when Michael Collins said "Apollo 8 you are go for TLI" sending man on his first voyage to another world stands alone. The average Joe Smoe doesn't even remember A8 much less who flew it, but history will look very kindly on this event a thousand years from now.------------------
Happy trails,
Wayno
"...you are go for TLI."
www.TransLunarInjection.com |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 02-19-2004 06:46 PM
Yes Voskhod the lack of photos of Armstrong on the moon (the only decent one being a shot of his back on the extreme end of a pan which Aldrin took) is very unfortunate for historical reasons. I had always given Aldrin the benefit of a doubt and believed it was just an oversight on his part. I guess that's what I'd *like* to believe. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-19-2004 06:57 PM
But the truth is it wasn't an oversight that there were no photographs taken of Armstrong on the Moon -- it was planned that way. No, this isn't a conspiracy theory, but rather almost every photograph was scheduled and trained for on Earth. NASA rehearsed exactly when and where each astronaut would have control of the only camera -- and Aldrin was only scheduled to have it for a series of panoramas. Remember that Armstrong and Aldrin had only 2 and a half hours to complete a relatively long list of tasks before returning to the LM and lifting off the Moon. The unexpected phone call from Nixon was enough of a distraction that there wasn't really time to do anything but what was called for in the checklist. |
FFrench
Member Posts: 3165
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 02-19-2004 07:07 PM
Not only is Robert correct, but the NASA planners also didn't think it all the way through for the next flight either. They made sure that Conrad and Bean took photos of each other - then had a devil of a time working out who was who in the photos! The solution was the red stripes on the commander's helmet and suit, in time for Apollo 13... no luck there. So it wasn't until Apollo 14 that they finally had photos of commander and LMP on the surface where you could easily tell who was who. Buzz Aldrin's fault? No. |
spacecraft films
Member Posts: 802
From: Columbus, OH USA
Registered: Jun 2002
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posted 02-19-2004 09:30 PM
Keep in mind, no one had ever stepped on the moon before. When Neil took the first step, he was still tethered to the LM. You can clearly see the tether in the 16mm footage.Even at this stage they were cautious enough to take this step. With our hindsight, from all the work later done on the lunar surface, it is easy to propose other ways of accomplishing the first step. As it was, with one man taking the step, tethered, while the other watched and helped guide him down (and photograph and monitor LM systems) this was the prudent way to do it. Also, there were a number of items that were lowered to Armstrong just after he stepped out from the LM cabin (including the camera). Mark |
Sy Liebergot
Member Posts: 501
From: Pearland, Texas USA
Registered: May 2003
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posted 02-19-2004 09:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Scott:
I agree completely with you Adam - but apparently we are in the minority.
Adam, Scott,
I believe that I can accurately attest to the fact that most Apollo-era flight controllers, myself included, view the Apollo 8 mission as the most exciting Apollo mission--it was the first time humans had been sent to another planet AND we beat the Russians. This always surprises interviewers. Apollo 11, while extremely exciting, was the expected result of a careful incremental test program. Everything had been tested to that point except the lunar landing (and ascent). So perhaps you are not in the minority on this topic.--Sy
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Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 02-19-2004 09:47 PM
Very interesting to hear. Thanks Sy. |
FFrench
Member Posts: 3165
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 02-19-2004 10:52 PM
I believe Neil Armstrong also said that Apollo 8 captured the spirit of Apollo more than any other flight, including his own. |
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