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Author
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Topic: Generic provenance letters for space artifacts
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Chuckster01
Member Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 05-26-2019 05:58 AM
   
I was wondering what others thought of letters like this that were probably given with a large number flown items but were separated out to represent a single item.Most of these letters are photo copies without original signatures or additional documentation. There are many examples I have seen from stowage lists showing the total number of items flown to letters like this one showing all of the flags sent to an organization like IMAX with no indication that this flag was ever in the ones delivered to them.  |
capoetc
Member Posts: 2169
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 05-26-2019 07:57 AM
Unfortunately, barring a rock-solid chain of custody (i.e., if the recipient of the original letter, Phyllis Wilson, had created original COAs for each of the flags along with a copy of the NASA letter), the flags are nice curiosities but you will never be able to verify that some unscrupulous person did not create multiple xerox copies of the letter and pair those new letters with silk flags.I would not want one in my collection. |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2121
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 05-26-2019 11:47 AM
What is particularly bothersome about this example is the fact the letter states the country flag as England, when the accompanying flag is a UK flag. This may be a genuine (and relatively common) mistake but no one is going to accept that letter as being provenance for the flag. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2914
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 05-26-2019 12:35 PM
Reminds me a bit of the Apollo 17 U.S. flags which had a cover letter by Cernan, and with another type by Evans and/or both, that I have never cared for. Yet many of those lunar flags have been sold for decades now as they always seem to show up in auctions. |
MCroft04
Member Posts: 1634
From: Smithfield, Me, USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 05-26-2019 02:51 PM
How does this differ from entire checklists purchased from an astronaut (personally or at auction) that have a single letter of authenticity that are later broken up into individual pages and sold? I own such a page from Apollo 17 personally signed by Gene Cernan as flown to the lunar surface. But I also own an Apollo 8 page signed by Lovell and Borman but nothing indicating that it was flown. I understand why neither of them would write flown to the moon even though I had a COA (for the entire checklist). Once it leaves their possession they can no longer "prove" that it went to the moon. |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 05-26-2019 03:24 PM
The difference is a flown page can be traced back to the manual sold at auction. Flown pages are certified by the astronaut even if only of the cover of the book. I have several flown pages that I purchased with no direct astronaut certification on the page but the astronauts are always happy to add that certification at any signing event. The Apollo 8 page in question (if the one offered on eBay several times) Lovell and Borman may not have been comfortable that that page in front of them at a signing could be traced back to the original books so it is very possible it was a manual used in training and signed by the astronauts at an event. I have never had an issue with an astronaut adding flown on any item with solid provenance. And Ken as an owner of one of the Cernan/Evans' flown to the moon flags and letters, mine at least has an original signature on Gene Cernan's letter although I do understand there are flags sold with photo copies (many flags sold with one letter) that I also question. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 05-26-2019 04:57 PM
Assuming that the letter with the UK flag is authentic (as in, it isn't a fabrication), then what is missing is documentation of the chain of ownership, tracing the flag back to IMAX. It might take some legwork (which should really have been done by the seller before listing the flag for sale) but obtaining such from the theater where it was displayed and/or IMAX itself should not be impossible. The addition of such a letter (assuming it, itself, can stand up to scrutiny) should address most concerns (including the legal chain of ownership, which at present is not clear). That said, the letter should also address why the flag was not mounted to a display as was the original stated purpose for these flags. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2914
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 05-26-2019 05:07 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Chuckster01:
And Ken as an owner of one of the Cernan/Evans' flown to the moon flags and letters...
Just for the record, Chuck, I don't recall ever owning a Cernan/Evans flown Apollo 17 U.S. flag. Nor can I recall acquiring such a flown flag from another collection nor any bulk buys, unless however, it may had been decades ago! I did handle one of them long ago, but it never was a favorite of mine, nor was I the original owner of it. I was helping out a collector friend as he had to drastically down-size his own collections.At some time ago, I did own a couple of flown Apollo 17 American flags, but I can only recall them being from NASA's Johnson Space Center in a completely different format. If your Cernan signature, Chuck, in reference to a flown flag you have, is authentic — of course — that would greatly add to the authenticity of the flag being flown, but I can't seem to remember the one you have. But even with a good autograph of Cernan in possibly helping to certify a flown flag, it's better in my opinion if the same flag could be mounted or attached to one of the known NASA and/or contractor certification formats or displays. I am still not a good supporter of any said-flown flag(s) that is one of many others with only an astronaut cover letter not hand signed and nothing more. |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 05-26-2019 06:19 PM
Ken, my flag and letter have been the topic of discussion here on collectSPACE in the past.This is from the collection of Gordon "Robbie" Robinson who looked after the Cernan family while Gene was on his lunar trip. In addition to the letter signed by Gene Cernan I have binder full of provenance detailing the relationship between Mr. Robinson and Gene Cernan Including several correspondence back and forth both before and after the mission. I do not believe there is any better proof of there relationship then this poem included in the estate items. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2914
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 05-26-2019 06:44 PM
Yes, Chuck, I do now recall that letter of yours from Cernan to Robbie Robinson, but that had been a different topic forum. I think we were discussing if the letter provenance confirmed either a flown CSM, LM, or both spacecrafts of which the flag had been carried aboard. Your Cernan flag doesn't appear to be one of those that had been a part of many flags together with just a copy of a Cernan COA-letter. By all means, Chuck, yours falls into a much better category if Cernan himself signed the letter along with all the supporting background provenance that you have from Robinson. |
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