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  Market for Apollo A7L lunar overshoes

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Author Topic:   Market for Apollo A7L lunar overshoes
Chuckster01
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posted 05-20-2018 04:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chuckster01   Click Here to Email Chuckster01     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Has anyone ever seen any examples of the Apollo A7L lunar overshoe sell at auction (training used of course) and any idea how many are in the private domain?

Rick Mulheirn
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posted 05-20-2018 06:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Mulheirn   Click Here to Email Rick Mulheirn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In the 80s and 90s A7L lunar EVA boots popped up a number of times at Aurora and Regency auctions. Mostly singles as I recall though I think there was a pair on one occasion. From memory in the $5000 to $7000 price range per boot.

For what it's worth, were any to surface now I'd expect a single A7L boot to command four or possibly five times that amount, depending on who the boot was made for.

It would be difficult to number those in private ownership but I would imagine 10 perhaps from various auctions that I've seen and then there would be those in the collections of those who worked on the suit program.

Why do you ask?

Chuckster01
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posted 05-22-2018 05:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chuckster01   Click Here to Email Chuckster01     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is very possible we will be offering a training used lunar overshoe in the next American Space Museum auction. I am in talks right now and it looks good. More to come when the consignment sheet is signed.

Rick Mulheirn
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posted 05-22-2018 05:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Mulheirn   Click Here to Email Rick Mulheirn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sounds exciting. On later missions I seem to recall NASA often used a paired back boot: not quite the full spec and minus the chromel R outer layer. Apollo 13 EVA training images show those up well.

Altidude
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posted 05-22-2018 09:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Altidude   Click Here to Email Altidude     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is quite exciting. I know someone who has a pair that was used in training and was manufactured by ILC. One of them is signed by Aldrin.

He asked me for an estimate for insurance. I looked at old auction prices including the A6L example in a previous RR auction. Since this was a pair with one signed, I felt that 30-50k would be reasonable.

However, I don't really know because rarity of the item. It really depends on the buyers present at the time. By the way, these were minus the chromel R layer like Rick stated.

Rick Mulheirn
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posted 05-23-2018 03:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Mulheirn   Click Here to Email Rick Mulheirn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As a matter of interest does the pair of Aldrin signed boots have a name tag attached? The white boots were I think a cost cutting measure used later in the program. Ironically, Aldrin would not have used them. That said they are a stunning item and would be well worth your estimation.

Now if anybody has a boot signed by Armstrong...!

Altidude
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posted 05-23-2018 02:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Altidude   Click Here to Email Altidude     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No name tag from what I can remember. Still a very cool item.

Chuckster01
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posted 05-23-2018 05:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chuckster01   Click Here to Email Chuckster01     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am going to look at the overshoe next weekend. I will see what number or name is on this one and report back.

Rick Mulheirn
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posted 05-24-2018 03:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Mulheirn   Click Here to Email Rick Mulheirn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A photo would be cool too if possible!

Chuckster01
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posted 05-27-2018 10:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chuckster01   Click Here to Email Chuckster01     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Personal family issues prevented me from making my appointment this weekend. I have rescheduled for the Saturday two weeks from now.

moorouge
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posted 05-28-2018 01:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for moorouge   Click Here to Email moorouge     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
May I add a word of caution. The lunar astronauts only had four custom made suits made for them. However, ILC made a lot of display suits. These consisted of a genuine outer layer with a rubberised inner layer. They could be bought for between £300 and £600 in the 1970's. Examples of these may be seen in museums and several were bought by private individuals.

One would have to be extremely sure that any overboot comes from one of the four genuine suits and not from one of the many display suits.

Chuckster01
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posted 05-28-2018 06:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chuckster01   Click Here to Email Chuckster01     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is very good information that I was unaware of.

Are there any words of advice for a positive ID? As I do not have any real experience with the A6L or A7L suits, this will be an expedition into the unknown and a real learning experience.

Rick Mulheirn
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posted 05-28-2018 07:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Mulheirn   Click Here to Email Rick Mulheirn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by moorouge:
The lunar astronauts only had four custom made suits made for them.
Records from ILC suggest that one or two Apollo astronauts had four custom made suits, e.g. Ed Mitchell, who served as back up crew on a couple of missions as well as prime LM pilot on Apollo 14.

Some used their prime suit (when serving as back up) as a training suit for their mission, but four custom suits was not routine. And I'm not entirely sure that each suit would have been complete with EVA boots and gloves.

As for identifying marks, I am sure there are members of this forum who own an A7L boot and can provide greater detail but 30 years ago I handled an A7L EVA boot made for Gene Cernan at the Science Museum in London. I'm pretty sure it was a back up as it showed no signs of wear and tear.

From memory, there was a Beta cloth name tag on what would amount to the inside of the tongue of the boot, and the outline of a large letter "R" stitched in to the bottom of the boot to signify right boot.

I have photos somewhere and if I can find them I'll post here. But in the mean time I have a suit spreadsheet that illustrates well the suits made for each Apollo astronaut.

moorouge
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posted 05-28-2018 02:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for moorouge   Click Here to Email moorouge     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There would appear to be a discrepancy in the ILC records. I only count three suits for Aldrin but this from a letter in 1972 from ILC suggests that there were, in fact, four custom suits made for him:
Thus far, four suits assigned to the second man on the Moon have been located. These are at –
  1. Smithsonian Institute in Washington, reported to be minus helmet and gloves.
  2. Building 7 at MSC in Houston
  3. International Latex Corporation Industries at Dover, Delaware
  4. Crew Engineering Laboratory, Bendix Systems Division, Ann Arbor, Michigan
NASA, listing the above, state, "All Apollo suits which have been assigned to former astronaut Edwin E. Aldrin have been physically located and identified."

SpaceAholic
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posted 05-28-2018 03:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SpaceAholic   Click Here to Email SpaceAholic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not according to Nate Sanders.

DG27
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posted 05-28-2018 04:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DG27   Click Here to Email DG27     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The astronaut's name (or test article ID for a test suit) is on a name tag mounted to the inside of the EVA boot tongue.

The EVA boot ID label is attached to the front side of the rear mounted donning loop. It will show the item name, part number, size, and serial number.

A dash number at the end of the part number will identify whether it is a left (-01) or right (-02) boot. In addition, as Rick mentioned, there is a large R or L stitched into the bottom of the inside of the boot to aid the astronaut in easily identifying right or left boot during suit donning.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 05-28-2018 04:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Given that astronauts were not permitted to keep any part of their spacesuit — training, backup or flight — other than their mission patches, it would stand to reason that any overshoe in private hands was never assigned to or used by an astronaut, unless it has de-accession paperwork from NASA...

Chuckster01
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posted 05-28-2018 05:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chuckster01   Click Here to Email Chuckster01     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Robert, as you know I am adamant about having clear right to sale for any item going through a museum auction.

If there is any question it will be referred to the OIG for clarification.

Rick Mulheirn
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posted 05-28-2018 06:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Mulheirn   Click Here to Email Rick Mulheirn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My apologies in advance if I am straying from the thrust of this thread but I was interested to discover recently that Buzz Aldrin's Apollo 8 "Primary Suit," later used as his Apollo 11 training suit was returned to ILC Dover and modified to be Bill Pogue's Skylab training suit. That suit (#36) is now a national monument situated at ILC Dover's plant in Delaware.

Altidude
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posted 05-28-2018 06:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Altidude   Click Here to Email Altidude     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is very interesting news on how the suits were reused. I used to suit up in Kerwin's suit and pose for Bean for his paintings back in the day (sad about his passing, he was a great guy). This was his backup suit, do you know any info on this one in particular?

Rick Mulheirn
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posted 05-29-2018 03:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Mulheirn   Click Here to Email Rick Mulheirn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't, but will see what I can find out.

Rick Mulheirn
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posted 06-02-2018 06:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Mulheirn   Click Here to Email Rick Mulheirn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Altidude:
This was his backup suit...
The Kerwin back up suit you wore while modelling for Al Bean (great story by the way) would have been suit serial no. 631. This was one of three suits made for him: flight suit serial no. 615 and a training suit serial no. 604.

In March 1971, Joe Kerwin also conducted a fit check on another suit, no. 307, but it would appear this was an earlier Apollo 15 thru 17 A-7LB spec suit that was being evaluated for Skylab.

Minor changes were made to the Apollo suits and since Skylab was a different program ILC decided to roll the serial numbers from the 300s to the 600s.

I have no information at this time on the whereabouts of any of Kerwin's suits though I'm sure a little digging would turn them up.

This information is courtesy of my good buddy Bill Ayrey at ILC Dover.

I'm intrigued to know whether Alan Bean continued to borrow the Kerwin back up suit over time or was it a short term affair.

Altidude
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posted 06-03-2018 05:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Altidude   Click Here to Email Altidude     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We posed a few different times over a few years and took hundreds of photos. I also gave him a few ideas that he made into that paintings. It was a very interesting experience.

The Kerwin suit fit me like a glove. Looking back on it, probably one of the few people who has had the experience of having a moonwalker help him suit up in an Apollo era suit.

I'm the one on the right. If you look closely, you will see Kerwin on the name tag.

Rick Mulheirn
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posted 06-05-2018 05:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Mulheirn   Click Here to Email Rick Mulheirn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Awesome photo. Thanks for sharing. How long did Alan Bean have the suits for: do you know? I presume they were loaned.

Altidude
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posted 06-05-2018 07:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Altidude   Click Here to Email Altidude     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bean arranged the suit. I think that it was either in the collection of the Space and Rocket Center in Huntsville or flown over from Houston.

In any case, Huntsville had a large collection of suits that were hidden from view and not on actual display. It was there each time and I never asked that particular question. We had a suit tech and a museum curator helping us, as well, during the sessions.

Bean thought Huntsville was ideal as it had a full size replica of the LEM (that he had layered in Mylar) with a simulated moonscape as well. It was sort of surreal because the scene was quite realistic.

Chuckster01
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posted 06-10-2018 03:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chuckster01   Click Here to Email Chuckster01     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well much to my dismay, this is a real lunar overshoe well used with great documentation. This was purchased through the GSA at Ransom Road and the owner has all the documentation (I guess they let two slip by).

We are sending copies of the paperwork to the OIG tomorrow to double check everything is on the up and up and to be sure the feds will not raid our auction.

Seeing as we all know the outcome of the Apollo 11 lunar sample bag, I have no doubt about clear ownership and we will be listing this item in our September auction.

Once I have the all clear from the government I will list the ILC numbers and the astronaut who this boot was made for; until then, I have a real lunar overshoe in my custody and I am thrilled.

rgarner
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posted 06-10-2018 06:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rgarner   Click Here to Email rgarner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When you say well used, I assume you mean in training?

Rick Mulheirn
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posted 06-11-2018 02:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Mulheirn   Click Here to Email Rick Mulheirn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Superb! Keep us posted.

mikej
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posted 06-11-2018 05:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mikej   Click Here to Email mikej     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rick Mulheirn:
I have no information at this time on the whereabouts of any of Kerwin's suits though I'm sure a little digging would turn them up.
Suit no. 631 is at the U.S. Space & Rocket Center, or at least it was a few years ago. It has had its ITMG removed and was displayed as simply an integrated torso-limb suit assembly, hanging on a cart, accessible to visitors. It was frequently displayed with the "suit cart," featuring a suit I have recorded as a Young Apollo 16 suit (although the suit doesn't seem to have any name or ID tags on it) which was similarly accessible to visitors.

I know that once the new curator started back around 2011, he tried bringing exhibits up to more modern standards. There was a lot of institutional inertia regarding these two suits, but I don't remember seeing them on display the last time or two I visited. I assume that they'd been moved to the suit vault or were awaiting a new display.

Altidude
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posted 06-11-2018 08:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Altidude   Click Here to Email Altidude     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
First, that is a great item and can’t wait to see the auction results.

In regards to the suit, that is disappointing information. Maybe it is still in decent condition and can be restored. In any case, the center did have a large collection of suits that were not accessible to the public. Hopefully, they are being preserved. They were not kept in a vault but were rather hidden in plain view. I’m sure that it is different now as the center has grown substantially since.

Chuckster01
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posted 03-20-2019 07:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chuckster01   Click Here to Email Chuckster01     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
An update. We now have clearance and clear ownership to offer lunar overshoe S/N 029 for sale in our upcoming Apollo Only auction.

From Bill Ayrey at ILC Dover, serial number 029 was the first pair of lunar boots made with the configuration used for Apollo 11 and beyond, It looks like boots #029 where allocated with A7L suit # 039 that was built for engineer/test subject Jackie Mays.

These boots where used to carry out lunar qualification tests that proved the suit system including the boots would work for the Apollo 11 mission. So this boot played a significant part in assuring the success of the Apollo 11 mission.

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