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Author
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Topic: 261402664465: Apollo 11 crew patch
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Besixdouze
Member Posts: 235
From: Hebden Bridge, West Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Registered: Jan 2011
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posted 02-20-2014 05:53 AM
   
The buyer of this one certainly got lucky - eBay item: 261402664465. Let's hope nobody spoils his day by informing the seller as to the error of his ways.And definitely not one of Chris’ recent replicas. |
Gonzo
Member Posts: 596
From: Lansing, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 02-20-2014 01:40 PM
Holy crap, Batman!If I had realized this was real, I guarantee the buyer wouldn't have won it for $10. I saw the listing but didn't give it a second thought. I saw the price was just $9.99 (start) and watched it, but not closely enough, apparently. For that price, I assumed it was a replica. Missed that one!  |
Besixdouze
Member Posts: 235
From: Hebden Bridge, West Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Registered: Jan 2011
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posted 02-20-2014 02:33 PM
I believe the buyer to be a cSpace member and valued contributor who enjoyed a similar bargain find last year. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 583
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 02-20-2014 06:23 PM
I was the person who bid. I wasn't going to comment until it actually shipped (even the most rational person wouldn't want to jinx that...). I bought first and asked questions later on that auction; if it was the reproduction, no problem, if it was the real deal, well, then count my lucky stars. So, I am officially in the process of counting said lucky stars. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 583
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 02-24-2014 06:24 PM
Ah well, wasn't meant to be.Seller used priority mail recall while it was "Out for Delivery", literally at the 11th hour. I have been out of town for the past week and my boyfriend has been listing items and shipping them out to help me out. There was an incident with my dog knocking over a cabinet while I was gone and all of its contents spilled out and mixed in with my items that are for sale. Not knowing that this was not for sale, he listed it and I am just now getting back to see this. Almost a classic "dog ate my homework", presumably because someone tipped them off after the auction? I'll never know. |
BlueHalo
Member Posts: 21
From: Boynton Beach, FL
Registered: Oct 2013
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posted 02-24-2014 06:41 PM
Wow Liem, talk about jinxing it even after it was shipped. Lesson learned, if you don't want anyone to know about it, don't even mention it at all.I am finding out that there are quite a few cS members here who underhand deal, back stab and talk behind your back with other eBay members just to get over on someone or to get something out from under them. But by now as they are reading this, yup we know about you. Never ceases to amaze me. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 583
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 02-24-2014 07:21 PM
Well, the morality issues were layered like an onion on that one, too. A $400-700 patch for $10 and free shipping, that's one issue. Was it simple ignorance on their part, etc. If I had actually managed to get it in my hands after receiving that email from the seller, do I return it or do I keep it and tell them, "sorry". I guess they're all moot issues now, but it did involve a moderate amount of introspection. |
fredtrav
Member Posts: 1673
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010
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posted 02-25-2014 10:34 AM
Lets see if it resurfaces on eBay with the higher price tag. I had a similar thing happen a couple of years back. I bought my copy of Liftoff by Mike Collins after seeing it for sale on Amazon. It was listed as signed and the price was $25. The book came in and it was signed to Bill Pogue by Mike Collins. The seller sent me an e-mail telling me what a bargain I had gotten. His wife accidentally listed it when she was listing other books. I offered to return it, but he said I had bought it fair and square, that he was going to sell it anyway, but for a lot more than that. He just wanted me to leave him good feedback on Amazon. |
Gonzo
Member Posts: 596
From: Lansing, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 02-25-2014 02:48 PM
Which is why I didn't mention anything about the EVA patch I received last week until after it was in my hands. It was a fair deal, but not on this scale!To muddy the waters a bit, I'd play the BS card at this point. If it was "out for delivery" via USPS, it would have been delivered. At that point, it would have been in the truck and out of the local post office. With that being the case, the US postal service isn't FedEx/UPS - I don't know that they can contact the trucks once they've left the post office. If it was FedEx/UPS, it's possible it could have been recalled once it was out for delivery, but even then, I'd call it unlikely. As for the comment about cS'ers talking behind each others' backs, yes, we all email back and forth and have deals amongst ourselves. Nothing in the rules about not being able to do that. I see nothing wrong with fellow members communicating and selling or trading items of interest. I've even been given notice of eBay listings by fellow members when it was something they believed I would be interested in. Again, nothing wrong with that. I'm thankful we can do that for each other. That HELPS others. So I don't see the issue with the previous comment. If it was meant to imply that someone here has a listing with a price that is too high and it is discussed here as a warning, shame on the seller! And Liem, I'm glad you had the foresight to consider what you would have done given the circumstances, whether those circumstances are honest or otherwise. Many (I'm afraid to say) would have done exactly as you suggested - kept the patch and told the seller "too bad. You sold it fair and square." Kudos to you for realizing the dilemma it would have caused. I'm sorry you didn't get the patch, but at least you have the conscience to understand the situation. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 583
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 02-25-2014 11:04 PM
The status of my deliveries changes from "Out for Delivery" to "Delivered" before the truck returns to base so I presume he's scanning the barcodes and having the info batch uploaded to the post office, but I could be wrong. Here's what it looked like on the web site: If it was recalled earlier, it would have been intercepted at the post office before it was put in the truck. |
James C
Member Posts: 23
From:
Registered: Dec 2013
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posted 02-26-2014 01:22 AM
Surely if you had won the auction, paid, and it had been shipped, it isn't their patch anymore to recall?So they listed it in error. That's tough luck. |
Steve Zarelli
Member Posts: 731
From: Upstate New York, USA
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 02-26-2014 06:26 AM
I had no idea mail could be recalled when in transit. It is not a shock that greed knows no bounds. I call total BS on the dog versus cabinet story. There is little doubt the seller was contacted by someone after the sale and sold it out from underneath you. People need to be responsible for their actions and have the decency to honor commitments. If someone sells something without doing their homework first, they need to live with the consequences of what happens. |
Gonzo
Member Posts: 596
From: Lansing, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 02-26-2014 09:11 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Liembo:
If it was recalled earlier, it would have been intercepted at the post office before it was put in the truck.
I stand corrected and surprised. I've worked in IT for many, many years so I can somewhat see the technology needed to recall a package. I didn't expect the USPS to be that advanced. So I am humbly and happily corrected.I also agree with Steve, unless the dog/cabinet story is true (and even then, it's a flimsy excuse as the boyfriend should have stopped selling for her), people should be held to their errors. Sorry. Tough luck for her, but it was her error. Learn from it and go on. |
hinkler
Member Posts: 573
From: Melbourne, Victoria, AUSTRALIA
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 02-26-2014 01:55 PM
Contact eBay. I would suggest the seller is obliged to go through with the sale. It was listed. You were the high bidder and won the auction. You paid for the item and it was packaged and sent. Bad luck for the seller if the dog ate her homework or any other excuse.A few years ago an aircraft was sold on Oz eBay. The seller wasn't happy with the price and tried to get out of the sale. A court ruled (in oz) that there was a binding legal sale and the aircraft was was the property of the high bidder. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 583
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 02-26-2014 05:12 PM
There's really no recourse. eBay can't force them to hand over the item, all they can do is have them refund the money (which they did) and have me give neutral or negative feedback. C'est la vie. |
kosmo
Member Posts: 388
From:
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted 02-26-2014 05:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by hinkler:
Contact eBay.
Actually eBay doesn't really care, I had a similar thing happen to me, won and paid for a group of items, one lot (NASA Skylab 1, 2 and 3 missions pickup carrier caps), I only paid 99 cents for it and I'm sure someone talked to the seller and he/she decided that they didn't want to send it to me. I declined the seller's request to cancel the transaction, eBay did nothing and I never got my items. The seller simply refunded my money, end of transaction. |
Dave Owen
Member Posts: 28
From: Te Awamutu, Waikato, New Zealand
Registered: Oct 2008
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posted 02-26-2014 06:47 PM
I once bought a nice 12" dob telescope for $20 on a local auction site. It turned out that the site's terms and conditions allow sellers to cancel a sale if the reserve price was "an obvious mistake". I don't know if eBay has anything similar but it wouldn't surprise me. It's a bit annoying really as many legitimate auctions have $1 reserves.In my case I didn't mind as it was a genuine mistake rather than someone just changing their mind about selling. |
moonnut
Member Posts: 248
From: Andover, MN
Registered: Apr 2013
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posted 02-26-2014 07:10 PM
I can say that I have been on the other side of the stick. When I began collecting space memorabilia and then selling a few things, I sold 25 NASA numbered Apollo Kodak photos for $50. A few being A Kodak Paper. I was new and didn't know any better. I did more research before I sent them out and saw that they were worth a lot more. I still sent the photos to the buyer, because I made the mistake and had to suffer the loss. I didn't do my research and that's not their fault. I also have good business ethics and morals. So, all in all, the seller should own up to their mistake and take it as a learning experience. Either to more research or to list things yourself so that doesn't happen. |
Keith Barber
Member Posts: 326
From: Warwickshire
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 02-27-2014 12:34 PM
I remember a nice Armstrong someone brought on eBay for a great price and shared their fortune on this site, sadly someone intervened also and they never got it (seller said they had damaged it as I remember). This was years ago... |
Steve Zarelli
Member Posts: 731
From: Upstate New York, USA
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 02-28-2014 06:09 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Keith Barber:
I remember a nice Armstrong someone brought on eBay for a great price and shared their fortune on this site, sadly someone intervened also and they never got it (seller said they had damaged it as I remember). This was years ago...
I've seen this many times over the years, The lesson is: don't crow about your bargain until it is in your hands! |
JasonIUP
Member Posts: 282
From: PA
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 02-28-2014 09:32 AM
Two ideas come to mind: Breach of Contract against the seller and Tortious Interference against the person who interfered with the sale. |
Apollo-Soyuz
Member Posts: 1205
From: Shady Side, Md
Registered: Sep 2004
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posted 02-28-2014 11:06 AM
Liembo, did the seller send you the tracking number? I work for the USPS and I never heard of a parcel being recalled after being out for delivery. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 583
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 02-28-2014 12:51 PM
Here's the info about the service: Most of the people I spoke to at eBay were surprised by the seller doing that saying that it was, "unusual" and "strange". |
fredtrav
Member Posts: 1673
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010
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posted 02-28-2014 01:57 PM
Let this be a lesson to cS members. Don't start a thread like this pointing out a great win until at least two weeks have passed since the auction on eBay is over. If this had not been pointed out, then Liem would have his patch and a great deal. |
Besixdouze
Member Posts: 235
From: Hebden Bridge, West Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Registered: Jan 2011
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posted 02-28-2014 03:09 PM
Fred makes a fair point and, with the benefit of hindsight, I wouldn't have started the thread but it's not like I was establishing a precedent. Take Topic: 121208507520: STS-51L, -26 Robbins medals - for example posted by Robert on Nov. 11, 2013. The end result may have been different but the intention is the same. The fact is, this information is in the public domain for anybody to research once the auction has ended. What people choose to do with this information, malicious or otherwise, is up to them. Nevertheless, of the two possible outcomes for this particular auction, losing the patch, for whatever reason, isn't the one I would have hoped for and if Liem or anyone else feels I'm in some way culpable for that, I apologise but as I've previously stated, hindsight is a wonderful thing. |
Steve Zarelli
Member Posts: 731
From: Upstate New York, USA
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 02-28-2014 03:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by fredtrav:
Let this be a lesson to cS members.
I'm not blaming the OP because he certainly had good intentions... but I'd certainly be steamed if I had a bargain torpedoed because someone posted it on a message board. All it takes is one underhanded person and an unethical seller to ruin it. |
JasonIUP
Member Posts: 282
From: PA
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 02-28-2014 03:21 PM
Could it be that some people are trying to be so painfully honest that they feel the need to "protect" sellers by giving them a biography of their item? If one isn't a party to a transaction, keeping their nose out of it might be smart. We all know that years can be spent acquiring in-depth knowledge of a subject. To finally apply it and get a bargain, only for the sale to be undone through the "honesty" of a do-gooder is not cool. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 02-28-2014 04:59 PM
Although I don't do it these days, in the past I've definitely pointed out to sellers in some situations that the item they have listed is valuable and that they should not accept any offer to buy direct or add a buy-it-now price. My advice was always for them to just let the auction run its course and let the item find it's own level. The reason I began doing this is because there were (and presumably still are) a significant number of buyers who consistently attempted to steal items from sellers by this method. On those occasions where one of these people had contacted the seller and tricked them into adding a buy-it-now for them I would contact the seller and tell them they'd been conned. The case here is clearly not in that category. In my opinion if an item remains in a regular open auction and runs its course then the result is fair on everyone. It's rare for any valuable item, no matter how badly listed, to go unrecognised by at least a few keen collectors so in the end the price should reflect the item's value to some extent. Obviously this is one of those rare cases where a valuable item ran its course but remained a real bargain. Liem didn't use any underhand tactics to win it so I don't see any harm done and I personally wouldn't have contacted the seller in a case like this. I don't know if someone thought differently in this case and contacted the seller resulting in this 'recall' or if the 'dog ate my homework' story, crazy as it sounds, is actually true. In the former case I guess we're likely to see the patch relisted for sale at a higher price. There is another possibility of course, which is that one of the more underhand collectors (that I mention above) contacted the seller not to save them from losing money but in order to make a direct offer themselves and steal the auction. This wouldn't surprise me one bit but in the end it's all just speculation. |
p51
Member Posts: 1642
From: Olympia, WA
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted 02-28-2014 05:40 PM
Happens all the time with all kinds of stuff. Sadly, sellers find that the item closed for less than they wanted or could get more, claim it's been damaged or lost, then simply re-list it.eBay doesn't care. I won a rare non-space item on eBay a few years ago and the seller claimed it was damaged and returned, so he simply threw the whole thing away after I asked for one part of said item that could easily be removed. He listed the exact same one, with the very same photos, two days later. He wasn't even sneaky about it. I actually called eBay and had them look at both items (it had a couple of marks which a foolishly thought would be obvious to anyone that it was the same item). The eBay guy on the phone yawned and said, "There's no way to know he didn't have two of them," and that was that. My find went for three times what I'd won it for, to someone else, and there wasn't a thing I could do about it. Worse still, I actually saw the item for sale at a show a year later, for three times what it'd sold on eBay to the second bidder. And all along, it should have been mine... |
fredtrav
Member Posts: 1673
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010
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posted 03-01-2014 10:09 AM
I was not blaming anyone for what happened. I was just making the observation that because of this, in the future we might wait until a couple of weeks after the auction to post about it, so this does not happen again. As far as someone listing an item without an idea of value then pulling it, probably for a private sale, I just had this happen on an item I was watching/bidding on. Someone listed a Jim Irwin signed WSS litho, which is a very rare item. A couple of days later I got a notice from eBay that the item was no longer available. I suspect the seller was contacted and sold it to some unscrupulous buyer who saw the listing and a chance to take advantage. This was just last week. |
jtheoret
Member Posts: 344
From: Albuquerque, NM USA
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 03-01-2014 11:35 AM
Interesting thread. As a long time seller and buyer I have a few comments. I recall back in the day when some of us would contact unknowing buyers of obvious forgeries or autopens. Then eBay changed so you couldn't do that any more. It's fine to want to help a novice collector and educate them, which is what cS does. On the other hand there is much to be said for let the buyer and the seller educate themselves and beware. In my opinion if you aren't the seller or interested in bidding then its best to just mind your own business. While the motive to be helpful is nice we are not the collectibles police. If someone gets a good deal good for them. If someone pays too much its their problem. We've all been on both sides probably. It all averages out in the end. |
vidoz
Member Posts: 82
From: Italy
Registered: Aug 2011
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posted 03-01-2014 04:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by fredtrav:
Someone listed a Jim Irwin signed WSS litho... the item was no longer available. I suspect the seller was contacted and sold it to some unscrupulous buyer.
Are you sure that the auction is still visible but it has been closed in advance because the item is not available anymore? If we are talking about the same auction, it is not visible anymore. This means that eBay pulled it off.Indeed, that seller listed two signed photos of Jim Irwin (the WSS was not an original NASA litho but a professionally printed photo) and both of them were questionable. When a seller ends an eBay auction in advance, it reads that the item is not available anymore but the listing remains visible. On the contrary, in this case, the two listings are not visible anymore. In light of that, I suppose that eBay pulled them off. So, I don't think there is an unscrupulous buyer behind the auction you are talking about. |
Steve Zarelli
Member Posts: 731
From: Upstate New York, USA
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 03-01-2014 06:07 PM
If you are referring to the Irwin personalized WSS and the unpersonalized business suit, they were pulled by eBay.
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vidoz
Member Posts: 82
From: Italy
Registered: Aug 2011
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posted 03-01-2014 07:40 PM
Yes, Steve, I was referring to those ones, indeed. |
fredtrav
Member Posts: 1673
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010
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posted 03-01-2014 08:19 PM
I believe that was correct. I had not bid on it, only saved it to look at later. Then it was gone. Had not really studied it but was disappointed to see it pulled. Not that I know it was a fake, I wish I could see it again, just to know what I missed as far as the signature. |
schnappsicle
Member Posts: 396
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted 03-01-2014 10:20 PM
Will someone please tell me why this patch was worth so much? How do we know this is a crew patch? What identifies it as a crew patch? What's the difference between a crew patch and a regular mass produced patch besides the intended use? |
David C
Member Posts: 1015
From: Lausanne
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 03-02-2014 12:56 AM
You need to read here: crewpatches.com |
Gonzo
Member Posts: 596
From: Lansing, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 03-02-2014 07:46 AM
Indeed, David. It was a crew patch. Normally valued between $400-700US. And thus the reason for the discussion. |
Steve Zarelli
Member Posts: 731
From: Upstate New York, USA
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 03-02-2014 11:09 AM
quote:
Originally posted by fredtrav:
I wish I could see it again, just to know what I missed as far as the signature.
 
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fredtrav
Member Posts: 1673
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010
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posted 03-02-2014 12:38 PM
Yeah that was bad, very bad indeed. |
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