posted 08-11-2012 08:06 AM               

Here's my opinion, for whatever it's worth, on various space models.

Revell, Monogram and Airfix totally screwed up all of the 1/144 Saturn V's. Full of mistakes — each and every one, never corrected. Granted, they molded these in the mid 60's before any Saturn V flew and molds are expensive, but they all look horrible from all three companies.

The 1/96 scale Saturn V was their first decent model. It was the right size, even though, once again, it was cast before one Saturn V flew and it's molded incorrectly. Plus they never changed the box art from 500-F which still makes me shutter. But 1/96 for the whole stack is a good starting point. That and 1/72 and you have a beautiful stack.

My hat is off to Dragon for rekindling the Apollo program. The Saturn V in 1/72 has a WOW factor to it that you'll get every time. To the purist, like me, there are just too many mistakes for the money spent. I think the die-cast is nicer than the plastic kits.

However, 1/72 doesn't work once you leave the stack. The Apollo 17 diorama in 1/72 is too small. Here's where they should have stuck with 1/48 like the rest of the CSM's that they're selling as kits. Just the right size to detail and to show you what it's all about. RealSpace Models came out with the first 1/48 CSM in resin several years ago and it's the perfect size. I'm glad to see Dragon follow suit. 1/72 doesn't work outside of the entire stack (though it fits nicely on the shelf).

Revell came out with the only Block 2 CSM and did it in 1/32. It's big — and doesn't match the 1/48 LM. A camel is a horse built by a committee. 1/32 gives you a ton of room to super detail, but Revell made nothing to go with it. RealSpace Models made a really nice SIM Bay, open hatch and instrument panel in the same scale. Combine them all, and you have an awesome model. The only other 1/32 kits were the figurines made by the late Chris C. from EVA models, who did superb work. I miss Chris and his models. The LRV in that scale was awesome.

So, to sum up:

• The entire Saturn Stack: 1/72 or 1/96
  
• Any hardware smaller than the stack: 1/48
  
• The EVA figures [and the Revell Block 2 CSM]: 1/32
  
• The LRV looks great in 1/32 but would probably also look great in 1/48
  
• Anything in 1/400 is key chain material.

posted 08-11-2012 10:21 AM               

Now as for the 1/144 Saturns, Airfix HAS corrected the biggest offender on their model, the CSM. The current issues of the kit now have a Block 2 CSM at the correct diameter and a BPC to match. The CSM itself is still sub scale, but that is mainly due to the limitations of injection tooling versus vaccuform (which a BPC really needs to be molded in for the proper thickness at this scale unless the capsule with BPC is just glued on permanently. With the CSM correction now in the Airfix Saturn Vs, they are currently the ones to get IMHO (coupled with Revell's reissue jacking up Monogram's 1/144 Saturn V in the Buzz Aldrin release by issuing it with decals with black "USA" lettering instead of the proper red stuff).

You make some valid points and are welcome to your opinion on the matter (and you are one of the nicest guys I know).

Now concerning my own thoughts on scale, I'll try to make more of a case for 1/72. First off, I applaud Dragon for going that route for a key reason, we haven't had a chance to build a decent representation of an Apollo CSM docked with an LM in this scale until now. Yes, Tamiya has their 1/70 kit which was reissued not too long ago (and now OOP again), but it was a Block 1 CSM, just like Revell's 1/48 kit. Prior to Dragon, the ONLY thing we really had out there was Airfix's 1/72 LM unless you count some of the Realspace stuff (which is not as readily available as styrene kits).

I concur about 1/48 being perhaps a better scale for Apollo ships, until you start docking spacecraft together. Then things begin to get a little unwieldy and heavy. So the only way to display them is vertically. With 1/72, in flight dioramas are a little easier to do with the vehicles displayed horizontally or at a slight angle. And displays featuring BOTH a CSM and the LM with the CSM orbiting overhead don't take up that much room. So those with a cramped display space can't necessarily expand it enough for a similar display in 1/48.

Secondly, if one is trying to display a whole fleet of manned US spacecraft together in the same scale, when you throw in a space shuttle it becomes a problem since the largest commercially available kits out there of the shuttle are 1/72 scale (I've heard of people wanting a company to do a 1/48 shuttle, but even I would have trouble finding space to display that monster). With Dragon's 1/72 offerings, we can now build a full display of Mercury, Gemini, Apollo and Shuttle vehicles together in one display (and throw in an X-15 as well and a Soyuz once Dragon issues the ASTP kit). The only key element missing thus far is a decent 1/72 Vostok capsule except for a nice resin one that is very hard to find these days (from Racoon Models I believe).

Spacecraft in 1/72 also allows for a display to be expanded to include aircraft, such as NASA's T-38s, SR-71s, or perhaps models of the previous aircraft flown by astronauts before joining the space program (such as Armstrong's Bearcat and F9F perhaps). There are even a few kits out there in 1/72 of lifting bodies, from the M2-F1 to the X-24 series birds. Although 1/48 is probably a more popular aircraft scale right now, there have been more subjects done in 1/72 than in ANY other scale. So sometimes it is nice displaying a NASA spacecraft next to something more terrestrial in its flight envelope to illustrate how big (or small in the case of Mercury) some of these spacecraft really are.

I concur that 1/72 is probably the best scale for launch vehicles if you want them BIG, but not everyone has the space to display a 1/72 Saturn V or something with as wide a footprint as a 1/72 shuttle stack (I can barely display two of those as it is). With space models, it is always going to be about the art of the compromise in scale with tiny spacecraft versus BIG launch vehicles. But at least 1/72 scale has the potential of somebody displaying rockets and spacecraft in one consistent scale, IF they can support display of both a very tall Saturn V and a very wide shuttle stack (assuming they want to go that big as the R-7 is not small and a Saturn 1B is kind of tall as well).

As for another rocket display option on a budget, 1/200 is a good scale choice with AMT's reissue of the Man In Space set (Redstone to Saturn V). Throw in a Hasegawa 1/200 shuttle stack and the results can look great with the right modeling skills thrown in to do all the manned US launchers (to date) in the same scale.

posted 08-11-2012 08:46 PM               

I guess the point I was trying to make is the scales are all over the place. If I had my druthers, 1/48 would be great to work in — but building full launch vehicles in that scale would get a bit out of hand — especially when you get to the Saturn V and the N-1 (thought I'd kill to have a 1/48 Saturn V and Saturn IB). The shuttle stack would be mighty wide, though.

But, again, all points well taken in regard to 1/72. I think it all comes down to how much detail you want to make and/or show. The larger the scale, the easier it is to show. I was looking at the Dragon 1/72 SIM Bay versus the 1/32 version from RealSpace. Just a WEE bit of difference.

On edit: And I keep forgetting which was made by Revell, Revell-Monogram, Monogram and Revell-Germany. It's called "pass around the molds" time.

I think it was the Monogram in 1/144 that had the crazy second stage and interstage. I'm also glad to hear that Airfix finally fixed the upper portion of the stack... and include the BPC.

Now, if they'll just burn model boxes that show photos of the 500-F configuration, I'll be much happier. A pet peeve.

posted 08-11-2012 10:08 PM               

If and when I can do a model of every landing, then i would pick 1/72nd. As for the Saturn V, and 1B and 1, I have to stick to 1/144th so I can build the fleet, so to speak, including 500F. I now have 7 Saturn launch vehicles in 1/144,which i could never do in 1/72. Maybe it comes down to a quality (size and detail) over quantity (smaller but more) for me.

posted 08-11-2012 10:27 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronpur:
Anyone know the story of why they were removed?

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posted 08-11-2012 10:48 PM               

500F was never supposed to fly... it was just for fit on the LUT. Painting over the stripes if you want to do Apollo 4 or 6 is fine, actually looks kind of interesting. But 500F makes me shudder. And they never corrected a ton of the box art from every company, either.

posted 08-12-2012 07:52 PM               

All of these kits from the '60s could definitely use new artwork.

posted 08-12-2012 11:28 PM               

(notice four different scales)

But, yes, having all the launch vehicles in 1/72 scale would make one helluva display. I think the only one that's very hard to get is the Shuttle complete stack — and you can substitute the Apogee 1/70 Saturn 1b into the mix.

posted 08-13-2012 04:08 PM               

Here's a few pics:

posted 08-13-2012 10:48 PM               

As for the Saturn molds, the 1/96 kit was tooled up by Revell USA in the 1960s. When Revell of Germany was getting off the ground as a major company in its own right in the early 1980s and doing its own tooling, it looks to me like Revell USA sold the molds to them outright rather than leasing them. So that I believe is why every subsequent release has been in RoG packaging. For a time, both Revells were owned by one group, then RoG split off to become independent once again. But as of last year, Hobbico now owns both Revells once again. One thing I like is it has helped with kit distribution at least in the states as one can get the RoG space kits side by side with the American ones (except for the Neil Armstrong reissue anyway and the Revell 1/48 LM when it was put back out three years ago, although the 1/48 Apollo CSM/LM and SLA set has it again).

By the way, in 1/200 it is possible to get an X-15 in that scale as in the early 1990s, Dragon issued a kit of the NASA NB-52 with both the X-15A-2 in 1/200 AND a Pegasus booster. While they have been OOP for several years, they do pop up semi-frequently on the auction sites. I've got one of those kits and I plan to combine the Pegasus with a 1/200 Hasegawa L-1011 Tristar to make Orbital's launch vehicle, after they went away from using the B-52 (I believe Draw Decal does markings for the OSC L-1011). Granted the X-15A-2 never did an astronaut wings flight in that configuration, but in that scale it isn't too hard to bob the length back to its original short X-15 specs.

posted 08-14-2012 01:01 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by garymilgrom:
The OP mentions a 1/48 Saturn V upper section. Any news about this?

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posted 08-14-2012 01:16 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Jay Chladek:
Personally, I think the Apollo Saturn V footage in the Apollo 7 episode of FTETTM was done by an editor to mess with our heads a little...

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quote:

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When Revell of Germany was getting off the ground as a major company in its own right in the early 1980s and doing its own tooling, it looks to me like Revell USA sold the molds to them outright rather than leasing them.

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quote:

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I'll also say that if somebody is looking to get into space modeling, paper models and model rocketry also help to expand the catalog as well.

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posted 08-17-2012 06:08 AM               

• Mercury Redstone, Mercury Atlas and Gemini Titan: Real Space Models
  
• Saturn 1b: Apogee [actually 1/70]
  
• Saturn V: Drgaon
  
• Shuttle complete stack: Revell

posted 08-17-2012 09:28 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Retro Rocket:
I don't know if this helps any but I'm doing the CAD and masters for Fantastic Plastic's 1/72nd X-33 kit coming out early next year.

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Great news about the X-33. Aerospike engines! Very much looking forward to this one. Does FP list this on their site yet?

posted 08-17-2012 09:43 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by divemaster:

• Saturn 1b: Apogee [actually 1/70]
  
• Saturn V: Dragon

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posted 08-17-2012 09:47 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by arjuna:
Does FP list this on their site yet?

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posted 08-18-2012 04:35 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by divemaster:
SpaceShipOne, which is not available in 1/72.

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AModel makes White Knight and SpaceShip One in 1/72. It's a very nice kit in the box, but I haven't built mine yet.

posted 08-20-2012 06:08 PM               

Unfortunately, Virgin Galactic would not release any CAD data on SS2/WK2 for model building until the final config had been reached. Vulcan, the VG licensing company, let one company build all the models that are shown with Rutan. I forget the name, anyone remember or know it? The models were available but were fairly expensive.

I went ahead and modeled SS1/WK1 and SS2/WK2, I think my models are pretty close. I have Proteus in 1/15th scale, but WK2 in 1/15 would be almost ten feet wide. I started a 1/32nd Proteus which is a nice size for that scale, the WK2 in 1/32 is about four feet wide, still big.

The AModel SS1/WK1 looks pretty cool in 1/72nd so maybe that would be the scale I'd do for the other two as well. I took all my Scaled CAD and put them in formation, so you can see the sizes, the WK2/SS2 dwarfs the other two, but they are all in the same scale and distance in this pic I threw together.

posted 09-03-2012 05:10 AM               

Estes looks like they are going to be repopping the detachable BT-60 plastic fin unit for a rocket in their catalog this year that appears to be a variation of the Estes "Bailout" (this new rocket like the Bailout allows one to fly an action figure and have him parachute back to Earth). The fin unit on this new rocket is molded in black as it was on the Bailouts, but it was originally molded in clear when it was issued with the Titan IIs and the Beta Launch Vehicle kits. Since I have a couple of these fin units, they will come in handy with both the Gemini and Mercury Atlas builds.

Apogee's Saturn 1B is a great kit, but expensive. Semroc's is a clone of the Estes 1/70 Saturn from the 1960s and requires a bit more craftsmanship to build. Plus the fins are slightly oversized for stable flight. But it is available for about $70 US versus over $200 for the Apogee kit. I'm over 50 percent done with mine. As for matching the details between it and a Saturn V, except for the Apollo CSM, the only stage both rockets had in common was the S-IVB. But even then, both rockets had some key differences in their S-IVBs. Plus, as good as an Apogee Saturn V is, you can't de-stack it or build it with cutaway features to show the engines or a LM in the garage. Dragon's Saturn V may be crude in spots, but I think it can be built up to a very high standard if one has the proper research, skills and determination to do so.

Don't forget that Mach 2 also has the R-7 based Soviet/Russian launch vehicle models now as well. I know they have some problems, but they have the potential to be built up well enough. I just wish they would finally do a Soyuz.

posted 09-04-2012 09:39 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Jay Chladek:
Estes made a 1/73 Gemini Titan II and I'll be using parts from one of those to make myself a proper Titan for the Dragon Gemini kit.

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Are you sure about the scale? I built quite a few Estes rockets in the late 60s/early 70s, one of which was their Gemini-Titan. I remember it being larger, more like 1;48 scale. I found the balsa nose cone a few years ago but have managed to lose it again.

I do still have a 1:24 Estes LTV Scout kit I never got round to building, it's still in the original bag.

posted 09-05-2012 04:32 PM               

This was NOT the K-21 two engine cluster Gemini that was issued in the 1960s. Around 1984-85, Estes started a series of Titan rockets in 1/73 and all were based around the BT-60. The first was the Titan II ICBM. The Gemini Titan came out (I believe) in 1987, but it wasn't around for long at all (maybe a year at most). The final one was the Titan IIIE kit. All three kits featured an injection molded set of rocket engines for the base of the Titan, which could be popped on for display when the model wasn't flying. Both the Gemini Titan and the Titan II ICBM featured the clear plastic fin unit.