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Author
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Topic: Apollo 15 flown covers: Deke Slayton's role
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robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 01-14-2016 11:05 PM
  
I've just finished reading "Two Sides of the Moon" and something in there needs clarification. David Scott says that Walter Eiermann, the middleman in the Herman Sieger covers deal, was a good friend of Deke Slayton and that it had been Slayton who had invited the Apollo 15 crew to Eierman's house. At this meeting the 100 covers and the bank accounts for the payments were discussed. Scott writes that he thought that this was a set up arranged by Slayton so that Eiermann could put the deal to the crew. Three questions arise from this: - Was it Slayton and not Scott that got the Apollo 15 crew involved in the covers deal?
- Did Slayton have knowledge of the 100 covers deal before the crew launched?
- If Slayton knew of the deal before launch did this have anything to do with his deferring autorisation of the crew's personal items to the flight support team?
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David C
Member Posts: 1014
From: Lausanne
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 01-15-2016 12:07 AM
Indeed. And reading the later "Falling to Earth," reinforced these questions about Slayton's role and comparative treatment. |
cosmos-walter
Member Posts: 691
From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted 01-15-2016 04:05 AM
Shortly after midnight of Apollo 15 launch day, a young NASA employee at Manned Spacecraft Operations Building vacuum-packed the Scott and Sieger covers, which later landed on the moon fireproof with Teflon-coated fiberglass. The whole bundle was not thicker than 5 cm. It was given to Scott in the White Room of the launch complex 39A. Scott thought this employee would have added these envelopes to his PPK list. According to David Scott, Alexei Leonov: "Two Sides of the Moon" Deke Slayton forgot to sign and did not even have a look at Apollo 15 PPK lists. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2913
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 01-15-2016 05:15 AM
From my understanding of the incident, even after reviewing other documentation and reference sources, a "No" to all the above questions. Deke Slayton had no prior knowledge of the Sieger cover project before Apollo 15 flew to the moon. |
cosmos-walter
Member Posts: 691
From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted 01-15-2016 08:48 AM
Ken, do you see any mistakes in my explanation? |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 01-15-2016 09:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by cosmos-walter:
It was given to Scott in the White Room of the launch complex 39A.
According to several sources Scott had the covers in a pocket on his spacesuit before he left the crew quarters. Therefore he did not receive them in the White Room. |
cosmos-walter
Member Posts: 691
From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted 01-16-2016 04:04 AM
Howard Weinberger is an expert for Apollo flown covers. At Space Flown Artifacts he tells this part of the story: It is important to note that the Personal Preference Kits (PPKs) for the Apollo 15 crewmembers were packed and stored aboard the spacecraft days before their launch to the moon, so these covers could not have been packed if they were to have a launch day post office cancellation. The 400 covers were hand delivered to the post office (HQS Bldg.) at Kennedy Space Center just after midnight the morning of the launch. The mission launched at 1:34 pm that afternoon. There was a postal employee working late there and had the covers machine cancelled, as requested from the astronaut support office, even though the liftoff of Apollo 15 was planned for 9+ hours away. Once the special cachet envelopes were processed in less than 15 minutes or so, the batch of covers were brought to a nearby facility, the Manned Spacecraft Operations Building (also known as the Operations and Checkout Facility), where the batch of covers were vacuum packed so that the bundle was not thicker than 5 cm. Next, they were sealed in fireproof Teflon-coated fiberglass, and delivered to Launch Complex 39A's White Room after Scott and his crewmates had arrived at the pad for their final launch preparations and spacecraft entry. While there, Scott received the special package and put the small bundle into one of his leg-pockets of the spacesuit he had on. As I understand, this means Scott received the covers at Launch Complex 39A's White Room. However, Scott should have known that the PPKs were packed and stored aboard the spacecraft days before their launch. With this information I understand which rule Apollo 15 astronauts broke. Actually the covers flown with Apollo 11, 13, 14 and most likely 12 were not postmarked on launch day. |
Tom
Member Posts: 1597
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 01-16-2016 09:54 AM
The mission launched at 1:34 pm that afternoon. Apollo 15 actually launched at 9:34 a.m. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2913
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 01-16-2016 10:42 AM
Yes, true, there were no KSC-launch cancel dates associated with the flown Apollo 12, 13, and 14 lunar covers.The above explanation of how the Apollo 15 flown/carried covers were handled and processed on launch morning (given to Dave Scott atop the White Room of Pad 39A) is correct from my understanding of how the lunar covers got aboard the launch vehicle. I think most of the Weinberger-information provided here in the above postings were provided by the co-authors of his Apollo 15 flown moon cover study report many years ago, though. As a side note, however, I was always not sure, though, if the crew support employee was assigned the task of recording on the manifest that Scott had indeed received a bundle of envelopes on launch day. As for Slayton — no way — would he had been involved in such a "last minute" decision in permitting the envelopes to fly, nor did he have any prior knowledge of such an arrangement to fly additional covers to the moon that Scott had made with Eiermann and German stamp dealer Sieger. I am certain of this. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 01-16-2016 11:18 AM
It's important to point out that there were two deals between Scott and Eiermann. The first deal involved 100 flown covers for Sieger and a payment to the crew of $21,000.The second deal involved 300 covers for the crew. I am referring to the first deal. Scott says that Slayton was present at the meeting when the first deal was discussed and Worden says that at that meeting Eiermann spent a lot of time talking about it. This would point to Slayton knowing about the first deal regarding the 100 covers and payments to the crew. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2913
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 01-16-2016 06:13 PM
Slayton talked to Scott in early April 1972 when he first leaned that 400 "unauthorized" postal covers were taken on the Apollo 15 flight. During that same conversation, he was told 100 of those 400 were given to a "friend in Germany."At the time and beforehand, Slayton only knew about an approved 144 "authorized" lunar orbit covers that Worden had inside his own PPK. Slayton had reported and testified that he never heard nor knew anything about other flown Apollo 15 moon cover deals, rather in a meeting with Eiermann, or anyone else. But even in late March 1972, Slayton said he had a casual conversation with Irwin while flying together in a T-38 from Houston to the Cape, about flown lunar covers (but mainly referring to the ones that Worden had), but also, asking Irwin if he knew anything else about "additional" moon covers having been flown. This came about in reference to after hearing about an European advertisement offering flown Apollo 15 covers for sale. Irwin tells Slayton to talk to Scott about it. The night before Apollo 16's launch to the moon on April 15, 1972, Slayton had a conversation with both Scott and Worden, but it was about another issue concerning the remuneration of any philatelic gift offers to the crew. The crew was told to refuse all such offers. By early June, Kraft and Low reported that unauthorized covers were indeed flown aboard Apollo 15 with at least 100 or so having been later sold, mostly in Europe. On June 23, 1972, Kraft interviews Scott for the first time about his involvement with the cover incident. Slayton claimed all along that he was "very unhappy" that his crew had carried something without his knowledge and without proper authorization of any kind. To my understanding, though, Worden only knew once about a possible moon cover deal with Eiermann at that meeting referred to, in which Scott had been present. But never have I heard of Slayton being there, and if he had been, it was certainly not in Slayton's character to approve any sort of commercial deal or payments made of any kind to "his boys."
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robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 01-17-2016 10:11 AM
Did Slayton know about the deal that Eiermann proposed to the crew to sign a block of stamps? After all it was Slayton who was friends with Eiermann, it was Slayton who introduced them and Slayton was present at the meeting when Eiermann put the deal to the crew. If all of that is accurate then it points to Slayton knowing about the stamps signing deal.Slayton was the astronaut's boss. He must have had some knowledge of the many deals going on within the astronaut office. He was also friends with Shepard who by all accounts was one of the biggest wheeler-dealers in the astronaut office. Also, can anybody shed some light on who set the punishment for the crew? Who was it who made the decision to remove them as Apollo 17 backup crew and then to quickly move them on? Was it Low, Kraft or Slayton? Or someone else? |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 01-18-2016 05:45 PM
When did Slayton retire from his position in management to go back into the astronaut rota for a mission? Once he gave up his management role he wouldn't be in the process of choosing crews or disciplining crews would he? |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 01-20-2016 06:31 PM
With Slayton being prepared to remove Cooper from the flight rotation for the Apollo 13 mission, is there any possibility that he used the signed cover deal to remove Scott from the ASTP commander's role? ASTP was after all Slayton's last chance to go into space and it seemed likely that when he finished his duties on the Apollo 17 backup crew, Scott would have been given the assignment. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 01-20-2016 06:36 PM
Slayton was restored to flight status in March 1972, and it was only then that he became eligible for an assignment, as recounted by Ben Evans. For Slayton, the Apollo-Soyuz venture with the Soviets was his last chance. As head of flight crew operations, it was nominally Slayton who oversaw the astronaut selection process, but since he now considered himself a candidate, he asked Manned Spacecraft Center (MSC) Director Chris Kraft to handle the assignment on his behalf. According to a May 23, 1972 Associated Press article, the decision to replace the Apollo 15 crew as the backup for Apollo 17 was due to Irwin's decision to retire from NASA: ...an official said because the lunar module pilot and mission commander must work so closely in an Apollo flight, the whole backup team of Apollo 17 was being replaced. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 01-20-2016 07:00 PM
In Slayton's book it comes across as it being his decision to remove the Apollo 15 crew. He wrote, "So I was through with Scott, Worden and Irwin. After 16 splashed down, I kicked them off the backup crew for 17."Up until February 1972, Slayton was not in the running for a crew assignment. When he was reinstated on the active astronaut list, he put his own name forward for the command position on ASTP. The command of ASTP was something that Scott wanted and made no secret of this. Coming off the Apollo 17 backup role he would have been in prime position to lobby for the ASTP command. I believe he may already have been working on some aspects of the mission and visited Moscow in June 1972. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 01-20-2016 07:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
According to a May 23, 1972 Associated Press article, the decision to replace the Apollo 15 crew as the backup for Apollo 17 was due to Irwin's decision to retire from NASA.
Irwin wrote, "Deke dropped by my office sometime in May. He said, 'What are your plans after 17?" Irwin told Slayton that after fulfilling his backup duties for Apollo 17 he was going to retire. It was then that Slayton said to Irwin that he should bring his retirement plans forward, which he did. With Irwin leaving early, Slayton removed Scott and Worden from the Apollo 17 backup assignment. So it was Slayton's direct involvement that resulted in Scott and Worden being dropped. |
cosmos-walter
Member Posts: 691
From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted 01-21-2016 03:05 AM
In "Two Sides of the Moon" Scott mentioned, that Deke Slayton did not sign the PPK manifests before Apollo 15 launch. He did not even have a look at them. Is this true? When did he usually sign PPK manifests? I can imagine it was a couple of days before launch. |
alanh_7
Member Posts: 1252
From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 01-21-2016 10:27 AM
Was there a signing off process for the PPKs? If so I do not recall ever recall hearing about any paper work surfacing other than lists that Deke returned to the commanders of each mission before the Senate hearings. I may be wrong but my understanding is the crew submitted a list of items and Deke either said yes or no and that was it. Did Deke ever require the astronauts to present the items, many of them of personal nature before they were sealed and entered in their PPK's? I have never heard that he did. That there was no formal PPK process and written guidelines tells me that Deke trusted the crews completely abd rightly so, and did not feel that there was a need for a formal process. Perhaps that was the error but if so it tells me a lot about Deke as person. That the men he worked with had earned his trust and he did not need such a process. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 01-28-2016 10:25 AM
There was a process but on this occasion the covers seem to have bypassed it. I find it a coincidence that Scott was one of Slayton's main rivals for the command of the ASTP and it was Slayton that removed Scott from the Apollo 17 backup crew. Throw into the mix the possibility that Slayton might have known something about the 100 covers deal, based on what Scott and Worden have written, and it begins to look as murky as the insertion of Shepard into the Apollo 13 crew. |
328KF
Member Posts: 1234
From:
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 01-28-2016 10:47 AM
Just a personal opinion, but ASTP connection doesn't make any sense to me. None of the crewmembers involved have ever suggested that this was the motive behind their dismissal. Add to that the fact that if Scott were the only one standing in Slayton's path to a seat, why take out Irwin and Worden as well?Regardless of how "well positioned" Scott would appear to be as a member of the Apollo 17 backup crew, Slayton and his supporters could have easily put anyone they wanted on ASTP. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 01-28-2016 11:16 AM
You could say that Worden and Irwin were collateral damage in the same way that Eisele was on the Shepard deal. The Soviets had made it known that they had a preference for the American crew to be commanded by a flight experienced astronaut, which would put Scott ahead of Slayton in the running and Scott had made it known that he wanted that command. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 01-28-2016 11:35 AM
How would Scott commanding Apollo-Soyuz have negated Slayton flying as docking module pilot? |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 01-28-2016 12:45 PM
Slayton didn't want to be the DMP or CMP, he wanted the command, shades of Cernan turning down the LMP position on the Apollo 13 backup crew. To this end, when Kraft asked Slayton for his recommendation for the ASTP crew, he submitted Slayton, Swigert and Brand. He not only wanted the command, he expected it because he was the senior U.S. Astronaut. Around about the same time that he was recommending himself as the ASTP commander, he was removing Scott from the competition. |
alanh_7
Member Posts: 1252
From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 01-28-2016 03:04 PM
Deke was not going to get the command spot. The Russians wanted an experienced commander. Stafford already had a relationship with the Russians when he was pallbearer for the Soyuz 11 crew. The Russians liked and respected him and he fit the experienced commander profile they were looking at. To suggest that Deke may have jammed up another astronaut because he wanted their crew assignment — an assignment that he was partly in charge of making the decision on in the first place — flies in the face of everything I have heard about Deke. I asked a Skylab/shuttle astronaut one time who he admired the most in the program and he said without hesitation Deke. I suspect that was the case with many of the flight crews. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 01-28-2016 04:29 PM
Deke both wanted and expected the command slot. His expectation was based on his being the senior astronaut. Stafford says that he only found out that he was going to be the commander when he returned from Moscow in late 72. Slayton removed Cooper from the rotation and put Shepard in his place. Some say that he was partly motivated to do this so that a precedent of an aging astronaut out of the running for a mission due to a medical issue and then coming back and getting a command, could be set. So Slayton certainly wasn't above making decisions on crews that served his own purposes. Slayton played no part in the final decision on the ASTP crew. That was down to Kraft with input from Stafford. |
alanh_7
Member Posts: 1252
From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 01-28-2016 07:13 PM
Yes, Deke wanted and perhaps expected to command the ASTP flight. But the fact that he did not get the command says as much about his influence as anything. I cannot believe that Deke would remove Cooper to set a precedent that might one day (hopefully) allow him to what? Name himself for a mission? All he had to do is pass the physical and very few people in NASA would have stood in his way to fly. Why would he have to set some sort of precedent to do that? |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 01-28-2016 11:10 PM
The only power that Slayton gave up, was the power to choose the ASTP crew. He still carried a great deal of influence. Along with Shepard, Slayton also put Collins and Mattingly onto the next available missions following their groundings due to medical reasons. This set up a kind of unwritten rule and it worked, following his reinstatement Slayton was placed on the next available flight.My interest is in Slayton's treatment of the Apollo 15 crew. There are two references, one in Scott's book and one in the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal that state it was Slayton who introduced the crew to Eiermann. This must have been the result of one of three scenarios. - Slayton says to Scott that he has a friend who can arrange a deal to make some money. (Similar deals had been made with previous Apollo crews).
- Eiermann asks Slayton to arrange a meeting with the Apollo 15 crew so that he can put a deal to them.
- Scott asks Slayton to arrange a meeting between his crew and Eiermann. In his book Scott hints that it was Slayton who approached him.
If it was either of the first two scenarios then Slayton's subsequent treatment of the crew is puzzling. But Slayton had reprimanded an astronaut in the past for doing something that he had full prior knowledge of. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 02-07-2016 08:37 AM
quote:
Originally posted by alanh_7:
I cannot believe that Deke would remove Cooper to set a precedent that might one day (hopefully) allow him to what? Name himself for a mission?
Regarding getting Shepard a flight, fellow astronaut Cunningham wrote in his book, "The All American Boys", "...Deke was eager to establish the precedent that a man wasn't eliminated from space flight just because he was older, or just because he had been grounded, or just because he had been relegated to a desk job for ten years." |
alanh_7
Member Posts: 1252
From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 02-07-2016 02:58 PM
I won't argue that Deke's greatest hope was to be assigned a space flight. My point is I don't think Deke would have had to set that sort of precedent in order to be assigned a mission. Once he was certified fit to fly he was going to be assigned a mission if that was what he wanted. Besides the precedent was set when Al Shepard was assigned Apollo 14 (recall he and Lovell's crew flipped places to allow more training time).
With the longer than normal training time required for the ASTP, it was a good fit. I am sure he was disappointed that he was not assigned as commander, but everything I have heard about Deke would make me think that he just happy to be assigned a mission. |
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