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Topic: Neil Armstrong's Omega Speedmaster flown strap
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JPLC
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posted 04-21-2013 08:26 AM
   
I'm totally new here but I need your help. I found this forum searching the number on the Velcro watch strap I've got here. There's only two hits on the CF 55052 number (total: CF 55052 - 5 S/N 118) and I'm surprised to find a blueprint and a topic about this object. My father told me that the strap I own, Neil Armstrong claimed it to be "the one strap" he worn on the Moon. Let me first start with how I got this strap: Somewhere in the 80's Neil Armstrong donated this to the new Omega headquarters in the Netherlands. It was his gift for Omega's grand opening. He did the opening ceremony that day. My father was an Omega head salesman at that time. Omega's headquarters got bankruptcy a few years later and my father decided to keep the strap safe out of hands of people who wouldn't understand the value of it. As long as I know (I'm 34 years old) we have this at our home. After my father died he left this to the family and I'm the one having it and looking for information about this object. I've got a lot of questions and don't know where to start. First of all, my Velcro strap doesn't look like the remakes at all. I'm not sure how correct the remake I found on this forum is but it must be that my strap is authentic. How many different models or prototypes were used and which one made it to the moon, in specific worn by Neil Armstrong? Is there a way to find out the value of this strap? I've got no idea... Feel free to ask anything. I don't know that much about it but I can provide you with extra photographs and close-ups. Please help me out to find out more. Thanks! Picture of the strap:  Also, I'm thinking about framing the strap and present it more like a collectable. I've got some ideas like making a collage of the strap containing a portrait of Neil Armstrong, the blueprint and a close-up of the strap worn on the moon. The best photograph I can find is the one of Buzz Aldrin wearing a similar strap. Ay ideas about this would be much appreciated! |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-21-2013 08:53 AM
A couple of initial points: - Neil Armstrong did not own his OMEGA Speedmaster or its watch strap, so he could not have donated it to OMEGA. It was property of NASA, and then transferred to the Smithsonian.
Armstrong may have delivered the watch strap, assuming it was authentic, to OMEGA on behalf of the Smithsonian, however... - The OMEGA Speedmaster that Neil Armstrong wore on the moon, complete with its watch strap, is held at the Smithsonian as part of the National Collection. It was transferred by NASA to the Smithsonian in 1973.
If the strap had flown to the moon and was indeed being donated (or loaned) to OMEGA, I think something of that importance would have been displayed at the OMEGA Museum, which opened near the company's headquarters in Switzerland in 1984 (and has been open ever since). So I believe you can rule out your strap as having been worn by Armstrong on the Apollo 11 mission, but what your strap is, or if it has any connection to the Apollo program, I don't know. My guess is that your father may have brought home a Velcro strap and told you, as a child, a harmless story to interest you in the moon landings. |
JPLC
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posted 04-21-2013 09:37 AM
Thank you for your comments. Let me react on that: quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Neil Armstrong did not own his OMEGA Speedmaster or its watch strap, so he could not have donated it to OMEGA. It was property of NASA, and then transferred to the Smithsonian.
Is this a well known policy or something you assume? quote:
Armstrong may have delivered the watch strap, assuming it was authentic, to OMEGA on behalf of the Smithsonian, however...
That makes more sense to the above. I got your however... quote:
The OMEGA Speedmaster that Neil Armstrong wore on the moon, complete with its watch strap, is held at the Smithsonian as part of the National Collection. It was transferred by NASA to the Smithsonian in 1973.
Source: This object is not on display at the National Air and Space Museum, it is either on loan or in storage. I'm sorry if I'm wrong but this doesn't seems to explain they own this strap right? And for a museum it's no exception to complete the piece with a mock-up accessory to tell "the complete story." It's not that I doubt your information but it seems possible that the museum owns the original Speedmaster and decorated it with a duplicate? Edit: Seems like the strap on the picture of the museum doesn't match with the blue print of the strap. quote:
If the strap had flown to the moon and was indeed being donated (or loaned) to OMEGA, I think something of that importance would have been displayed at the OMEGA Museum, which opened near the company's headquarters in Switzerland in 1984 (and has been open ever since).
I understand your point of view. It's noble but I'm not the first person (family) who owns something with historic value. Ask yourself if you would have something like this. Would you donate it? That's something personal I think. quote:
So I believe you can rule out your strap as having been worn by Armstrong on the Apollo 11 mission, but what your strap is, or if it has any connection to the Apollo program, I don't know.
With all respect. As you can see I'm not totally convinced. But I really appreciate it to find someone who takes time to help me. quote:
My guess is that your father may have brought home a Velcro strap and told you, as a child, a harmless story to interest you in the moon landings.
I'm glad that you're honest about this last point. It puts your total post in perspective and I was prepared for skepticism. And you're right. It's hard to believe and that's why I ask these questions. It's just more than a child story. It's something my father proudly showed at friends and family. And I'm sure about one thing, he was an honest man with a honorable background. To convince you about the authenticity I've made some close-ups:  
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JPLC
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posted 04-21-2013 09:49 AM
 
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Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-21-2013 10:15 AM
It is well documented that the astronauts were not allowed to keep their OMEGA watches. The watches were transferred to the Smithsonian by NASA and then for many years, loaned by the institution back to the astronauts for their personal use. In the past decade or so, the Smithsonian recalled all the watches from loan. This object is not on display at the National Air and Space Museum, it is either on loan or in storage. While Armstrong's watch is not currently on display, I personally saw it at the National Air and Space Museum several years ago. According to the museum, it is held in their archives.As for my comments and your reply about the OMEGA Museum, I think you misunderstood my point: according to your account, Neil Armstrong was donating the watch strap to OMEGA, but to its offices in the Netherlands. But given the historical importance of such an object, it would seem that OMEGA would place such an item at its company museum in Switzerland, which has been open since 1984. I am not calling your father's integrity into question, but there were many, many people who claimed to have a piece from the mission, or some role in it, and never did. For example, there was a man in Neil Armstrong's hometown who claimed young Neil would look at the moon through his telescope — which resulted in that telescope being proudly displayed. But according to Armstrong, that never happened. And then there was the seamstress who said she sewed her initials into the U.S. flag that was deployed by Armstrong and Aldrin on the moon's surface. However, according to NASA, the flag was randomly purchased at a local Sears, not custom ordered. But that all aside, there is a solid reason why the strap you have is not the type worn on the moon: the serial number on the strap. The "CF-55052-5" designation was used during the Gemini program, not the Apollo program. So, it is at least possible this is the strap that Armstrong wore on Gemini 8, but not Apollo 11, as your father described. You can see a flown Gemini strap, which more closely matches the style of your strap, here. But again, there are differences, including the use of the camouflage print, that raise questions as to the nature of the strap your father retained. |
JPLC
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posted 04-21-2013 11:39 AM
Thank you Robert. At this point I understand that the story took his own direction and grow into some story about Apollo 11 and the Moon. So it's possible that this has something to do with Gemini 8.Fair enough and sounds very reasonable. The camouflage print is indeed very interesting. It doesn't fit the black straps but it's hard to find photographs where you can see the canvas part of the strap. I got a mail from some Ray who also referred to the Vietnam War. I've seen some straps with camo and I would like to know what the connection with astronauts is. Ray doubts it's got anything to do with NASA but I'm not sure of that because of the code printed on it. As you say it refers to the Gemini project. So if... it wouldn't be worn on a mission, why the code?! Ray is very clear about the strap not or never being worn or used by any NASA member. Like this would be something impossible. I think this is rough statement. One thing is for sure, it came from Neil Armstrong. All I can find is something about his visit to Holland during the Apollo 11 world tour ('69). It has to be that during that time he visited Omega Netherlands. |
Greggy_D
Member Posts: 977
From: Michigan
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted 04-21-2013 12:01 PM
I can't imagine a camo print watch strap being specified for a lunar landing mission. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-21-2013 12:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JPLC:
One thing is for sure, it came from Neil Armstrong.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. You've already seen and accepted that your father conflated the Apollo 11 mission with Gemini 8. It is possible that he made a similar mistake about the origin of the strap.Unless you have photographs showing Armstrong at the OMEGA offices in the Netherlands, or can find newspaper articles documenting that visit, than it will be hard to substantiate that this strap came from the first moonwalker. And even if you can find record of Armstrong's visit, it does not necessarily mean that the strap came from the astronaut. It could have very well been something that OMEGA had produced, a salesman sample or the like, or even an early prototype of the strap that it was producing for the Gemini missions. Like Ray, I doubt that the camouflage print flew. NASA is a civilian agency and by the time Armstrong flew in space, he was a civilian, too. There would have been no reason for the military design. Incidentally, quick searches reveal no references to OMEGA having filed for bankruptcy in the 1980s, either in the Netherlands or elsewhere. You might want to research that aspect of your father's story first, as it should be easy to discern if indeed that was the catalyst for your father having removed the strap (which if he did raises other concerns but that can be discussed after the story is verified). |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-21-2013 12:21 PM
Another quick point: quote:
Originally posted by JPLC:
Somewhere in the 80's Neil Armstrong donated this to the new Omega headquarters in the Netherlands.
quote:
Originally posted by JPLC:
All I can find is something about his visit to Holland during the Apollo 11 world tour ('69). It has to be that during that time he visited Omega Netherlands.
So was it the 80s or the 60s? It should be easy to find out when Omega opened its offices in the Netherlands. |
JPLC
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posted 04-21-2013 12:25 PM
Thank you for your time. I'll go my own way from here. I'll try to contact NASA and other companies to verify what I know. For now I've got enough info from this forum. Thank you for that. For personal reasons I've removed the attached images in this topic. |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2121
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 04-21-2013 01:59 PM
I have only ever seen black or white straps on the Apollo mission Speedmasters, and even on Gemini 8 Armstrong looks like he is wearing a plain black strap.Its a shame JPLC has chosen to remove the images as it makes for an interesting thread. |
JPLC
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posted 04-21-2013 03:46 PM
On request by Robert I'll post the pictures again. For what it's worth...
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nasamad
Member Posts: 2121
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 04-21-2013 04:12 PM
Thanks JPLC it does help the thread make a bit more sense.The material on this looks more like a rough denim to me rather than a beta fabric. It more closely resembles my reproduction NASA Speedmaster strap (albeit in camouflage material) that I bought on eBay a few years back, than the previously mentioned blueprint. Mind you I think they were different from that blueprint anyway as I don't recall seeing the retainers on the straps I think the straps were just threaded between the body of the watch and the pins. Yours looks similar to the straps shown on this webpage, similar in the sense that the one near the bottom of the page has all the same numbers printed on it, but in a different material, but sadly I cannot read the text on this page. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-21-2013 04:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by nasamad:
The material on this looks more like a rough denim to me rather than a beta fabric.
NASA didn't introduce the use of Beta cloth until after the Apollo 1 fire. As this strap's serial number indicates a Gemini heritage, it would be nylon or some other material, but not Beta cloth. |
bwhite1976
Member Posts: 281
From: Belleville, IL
Registered: Jun 2011
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posted 04-21-2013 09:08 PM
There are individuals on this forum with great familiarity with every NASA Apollo era photo ever taken so I am no expert, but I have never seen a camouflage strap in any picture related to Gemini or Apollo. Despite the look of the strap or the serial number, has anyone ever seen a camo strap in any Apollo or Gemini mission picture? |
Jurg Bolli
Member Posts: 977
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 04-21-2013 09:31 PM
As a veteran of the Swiss Army I can say with absolute certainty that the camouflage cloth was used in the Swiss Army in the 1970's and 1980's for their battle dress. There is no way in my view that Omega would have used army camouflage on any strap.One can buy surplus jackets, pants, hats etc with that same cloth today in Switzerland. |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2121
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 04-22-2013 10:18 AM
Sorry Robert, I should have said I was comparing the fabric to the blueprint details to show it didn't appear to be Apollo era.The same numbers on two different pattern materials doesnt look good, I'm guessing the language on the website is Polish but I can't find a Polish to English online translator. I'd be interested to read the text on the page. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-22-2013 10:31 AM
Google Translate offers Polish to English. The caption under the photo reads: From the top: Speedmaster CK 2998, the Wally Schirra wore during the mission Sigma Speedmaster 105.003, which bore Thomas Stafford in Gemini VI, Gemini and Apollo IX, X; Speedmaster 105.012, which bore Richard Gordon during the Apollo XII |
JPLC
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posted 04-22-2013 03:36 PM
Okay lets see where this goes...First of all, thank you nasamad for providing that link. This is the first corresponding photograph I've seen so far. I can tell by looking at the strap here that the fabric is very similar to the photograph at the bottom of that webpage. The metal clip on my strap is made of black steel. It's hard to see the color of the metal part on the Richard Gordon strap. It's clear that the other two are made of normal steel. For you all to have a better judge I've made a high resolution scan of the strap. It seems like the font of the code looks the same and the location of the text is a little different. Seems like the rest is exactly the same. I've found out some more and better details about Neil Armstrong's visit to the Netherlands: His visit to the Netherlands was during the "Giant Leap" tour in 1969. When they visited the Netherlands, OMEGA Switzerland arranged a meeting with Neil Armstrong in the Netherlands because OMEGA wanted to hand over a golden Speedmaster to Neil Armstrong as a gift from the company. For your information: Somewhere out there there's a golden engraved Speedmaster that Neil Armstrong owned. OMEGA's sales agency in the Netherlands arranged this meeting for OMEGA Switzerland. After this ceremony Neil Armstrong returned a gift and that's the strap I have here. I already found a list of people who traveled with the Apollo crew and there are some NASA people on the crew. So in case this donation by Neil has taken place, people of NASA should be informed about this. Two corrections on the previous post I've written: - The Dutch OMEGA sales agency did go bankrupt somewhere in '85 or '86.
- The ceremony around Neil's visit has nothing to do with opening a head office of the sales agency. There was no opening. My mistake. It was just an opportunity for OMEGA Switzerland to reach Neil Armstrong during his tour trough their Dutch sales agency. After that the agency received the strap for their own collection.
I hope this clears some things up! The scan of the strap:  |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-22-2013 03:51 PM
So as we're moving closer to the possibility that this strap was perhaps the same strap that Neil Armstrong wore on Gemini 8, or at least was presented by Armstrong, there's another issue that should be addressed: the strap is the legal property of OMEGA. Despite your father's good intentions, bankruptcy or no bankruptcy, he was wrong to remove company property. OMEGA is clearly still in business, in the Netherlands and around the world, and if your father's account is accurate, then it was clearly Armstrong's intentions that the strap belong to OMEGA. So what are your intentions? If the strap can be verified as the flown artifact, are you going to hold onto it or are you going to contact OMEGA in Switzerland to arrange its return? |
JPLC
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posted 04-22-2013 04:01 PM
It was property of the sales agency and not OMEGA. I was very specific about the agency owning the strap. The sales agency got bankrupted and doesn't exist anymore. I'm not on this forum to discuss how to handle this case. |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2121
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 04-22-2013 04:04 PM
Thanks for the translation Robert, that link you supplied is capable of translating the entire webpage and it makes interesting reading.JPLC, you're welcome for the link, hopefully it helps, the larger images you have posted do show it is almost certainly the same material as the Gordon strap. What I'm failing to understand is the S/N being the same on your strap as on Gordon's watch, I have always thought that S/N means serial number which I would assume to be unique to an individual item. I could understand a model number or part number being the same. There are people who understand NASA parts numbering much better than I so hopefully they may be kind enough to put me right. |
JPLC
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posted 04-22-2013 04:13 PM
To be honest, that's the same I was thinking. At first I was glad to find exact the same code but after that I realised that this code won't be useful to identity it as property of Neil Armstrong. The only way to verify that would be a picture or movie with a clear shot of the camo. That's like a fingerprint. No camo cut out is the same. I also found some pictures of Neil Armstrong wearing this strap in normal life. Looking it that way, you could say it's possible he left his strap in change of the golden Speedmaster. I've got no idea how they wear these straps. As a souvenir, talisman or some kind of fashion statement? Is it a training strap they where wearing? Or, like the story, a strap used on a mission? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-22-2013 04:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JPLC:
I was very specific about the agency owning the strap.
We're just talking here, so no reason to become defensive. But you have to admit, you were also very specific about the strap having been on Apollo 11, until you were shown that was wrong. You were specific that Neil Armstrong donated the strap to the "new OMEGA headquarters in Netherlands" until you found that to be wrong, too. OMEGA, not the sales agency, presented each Apollo astronaut with gold watches. And here's another point you seem to have gotten wrong: the gold Speedmasters were gifted at a gala dinner held Nov. 25, 1969, at Hotel Warwick in Houston. What is your source for a gold watch having been presented in the Netherlands? So which is more likely: that Armstrong intended for his flown watch strap to be the property of a sales agency, or the property of OMEGA, the company the sale agency represented and that furnished the watch and strap? All I am asking is that you consider the facts at hand and consider what it was that Armstrong desired. |
JPLC
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posted 04-22-2013 04:32 PM
All I've got are old stories and some facts. It's important not mixing up those two. Same thing with defensive and specific...All information about the agency are facts when I say so. There's no need to doubt that. Everything else I write here I can't verify myself because I was told. And it's a long time ago. I'm sorry If my way of explaining raises questions but I'm from the Netherlands. En dit soort onderwerpen zouden voor mij een stuk eenvoudiger te bespreken zijn in mijn eigen taal. All I did was assume that your information is correct and the stories I heard where blown up. Again, I'm no specialist in this subject. You wrote that this code refers to the Gemini project. The text underneath the photo of the link tells this strap was worn on the Apollo XII mission. And again, you make me also doubt the story. I didn't know about these golden Speedmasters. I'm glad you know about this which even raises more questions... |
Robert Pearlman
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From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-22-2013 04:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JPLC:
You wrote that this code refers to the Gemini project. The text underneath the photo of the link tells this strap was worn on the Apollo XII mission.
Though the caption could be clearer, I believe the strap in question was worn by Thomas Stafford on Gemini 6, not Richard Gordon on Apollo 12. |
Philip
Member Posts: 5952
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 04-24-2013 12:43 PM
Even during the shuttle era, astronauts had to return their watches... In the 1990s I wrote an article on astronaut watches and contacted many astronauts who confirmed this!Only Thomas Stafford and Eugene Cernan have been OMEGA watches ambassadors. |
space1
Member Posts: 853
From: Danville, Ohio
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted 04-24-2013 01:51 PM
Adam (nasamad) has a good point about serial number. It should be a unique number for a particular item. In comparing the Stafford watch strap with this one, I also note the Stafford watch has stitching with distinct white thread.Is this strap possibly a reproduction of the Stafford strap? |
Greggy_D
Member Posts: 977
From: Michigan
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted 04-24-2013 05:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
Only Thomas Stafford and Eugene Cernan have been OMEGA watches ambassadors.
Don't forget Buzz Aldrin. |
Kizzi
Member Posts: 32
From: Manchester, England
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 04-28-2013 10:46 AM
The picture of Richard's Gordon Omega is with three other Omega's all on Velcro straps.I wouldn't consider any of the watchstraps as flown items - the other two are obviously modern cinch straps with sonic welding. The camouflage seems to be French Lizard pattern. This link shows Gordon Cooper's watchstrap which is similar to those used for Apollo, with variations for wrist mirrors or cuff-checklists. It's reinforced with grosgrain binding tape (MIL-T-5038 type III) in an approximate Olive Drab #7. For Apollo, all part and serial numbers had to be included (MSC-SPEC-M1-A), and for watchbands they are P/N SEB12100030-2xx where xx is from 01 to 10. The serial numbers have to begin 10xx (according to JSC Policy Guideline (JPG) 8500.4 § 3.1.2.4 (c)), the last one used I think was S/N 1096 for an Apollo 17 "-201". P.S. I make my own  |
Jurg Bolli
Member Posts: 977
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 04-30-2013 11:00 PM
The camouflage is most certainly Swiss, I know from experience. A simple Google search will show! |
328KF
Member Posts: 1234
From:
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 06-28-2013 10:58 AM
I found this interesting. It appears that both of Richard Gordon's Speedmasters are on display in the Omega museum - from Gemini XI and Apollo 12.In this photo you can see the same camo Velcro strap. The caption roughly translates to: "Astronaut Richard F. Gordon ride Apollo XII Moon worn Speedmaster watches and gloves."  Not that any conclusions can be drawn from this, as we don't know if the strap was flown as well, but maybe just a piece of the puzzle. I also noticed the gold signature engraved watch caseback displayed next to it...the first I've seen of something like that, but similar to the gold watches given to all the astronauts following Apollo 11. |
Rick Mulheirn
Member Posts: 4167
From: England
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 06-28-2013 01:32 PM
I doubt the glove is authentic; it appears to have been mocked up.Perhaps the strap has as well. Many years ago I saw on tv an Apollo documentary in which Ed Mitchell went through some of the flown artifacts from his mission. I recall this included his Omega but it did not have a strap. If this was standard practice then a reasonable assumption would be that all the astronauts were permitted to keep the Omegas on inefinate loan....minus the velcro straps. |
4allmankind
Member Posts: 1043
From: Dallas
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 06-28-2013 02:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Rick Mulheirn:
Many years ago I saw on tv an Apollo documentary in which Ed Mitchell went through some of the flown artifacts from his mission.
"After One Small Step" from 1994 if memory serves... and you are correct, no strap was visible in the bag. |
Rick Mulheirn
Member Posts: 4167
From: England
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 06-29-2013 05:33 AM
Thank you for the affirmation. Reassuring to see I am not losing my marbles after all. |
Lou Chinal
Member Posts: 1306
From: Staten Island, NY
Registered: Jun 2007
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posted 07-20-2013 07:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by bwhite1976:
I have never seen a camouflage strap in any picture related to Gemini or Apollo.
I also have never seen a camouflage strap from the Apollo era.And Neil didn't wear any watch on the moon. He left his in the LM. |
Kizzi
Member Posts: 32
From: Manchester, England
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 08-07-2013 02:54 AM
Not conclusive, but here's Neil's pre-flight configuration space suit and crew personnel equipment. The watchstrap is mono-color. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-07-2013 09:09 AM
As noted earlier, the serial number designation on the strap in question is related to Gemini-era equipment, rather than Apollo. |
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