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Author Topic:   Apollo spacesuit accounting
thump
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Posts: 575
From: washington dc usa
Registered: May 2004

posted 05-25-2004 02:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for thump   Click Here to Email thump     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Does anyone know the cost of each Apollo suit? And if so, is current $ or then $?
Thanks!!

randy
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From: West Jordan, Utah USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 05-25-2004 10:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for randy   Click Here to Email randy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If memory serves, the cost was $3,000 - $5000 each, with each astronaut having three suits each - one for training, one flight and one backup.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

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From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 05-25-2004 10:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
According to "U.S. Space Gear: Outfitting the Astronaut" by Lillian Kozloski:
quote:
For the Apollo program, 60 suits were produced; and the contract cost of all functions, including manufacturing, was $90 million. This is the probable source of reports that the suits "cost" $1.5 million each. The first group of five Apollo Block II lunar suits bore a price tag of approximately $5 million. Hamilton Standard developed and produced, under separate contract, the portable life support system for $20 million. Each operational suit (not early research and development), depending whether it was IVA or EVA, cost between $90,000 and $125,000. Later Apollo suits, like the lunar or A7LB, had price tags ranging between $250,000 and $400,000. The major and most expensive problems remained the same: mobility, safety and comfort for the user. It should be remembered that this cost included the large sums necessary for research and development of innovative technology - much of it concentrated on safety.

Matt T
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Posts: 1368
From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
Registered: May 2001

posted 05-26-2004 01:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Matt T   Click Here to Email Matt T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'd question Kozloski's assertion that only 60 Apollo suits were manufactured. Even allowing that each prime crew member had a flight, backup and training suit there would have been in the vicinity of 99 suits just to cover the prime crews. Maybe deduct 10 suits for astros who flew twice and may have recycled their existing backup and training suits.

Then add a couple of suits per backup crew member who never flew on an Apollo mission - Engle, Brand and Cooper - and you're back near the hundred mark again.

Cheers,
Matt

Richard
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From: Morrisonville, New York USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted 06-07-2004 08:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard   Click Here to Email Richard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How many suits are in private hands?

mark plas
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Posts: 385
From: the Netherlands
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 06-07-2004 01:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mark plas   Click Here to Email mark plas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When Gene Cernan became backup commander of Apollo 14 he already had three suits from Apollo 10. Were these suits used for his role on 14 or did he get three brand new ones?

Richard
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From: Morrisonville, New York USA
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posted 06-07-2004 02:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard   Click Here to Email Richard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow! Great question! Does anyone know?

nasamad
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From: Essex, UK
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posted 06-07-2004 02:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nasamad   Click Here to Email nasamad     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Taking a guess I would have to say the Apollo 10 suits were reused at some point, but I'm not sure they were the ones used by Cernan for Apollo 14 backup training. Photographs show Cernan wearing a suit with the red armbands on it, but no Apollo 10 patch.

Strangely Cernan actually wore Dave Scott's actual flight suit during at least some of the Apollo 17 training.

Wonder why Apollo CDRs Shepard, Scott, and Young all had red stripes on their portraits and Cernan doesn't. But he has added the Apollo 10 patch to his A7LB suit!

Adam

Matt T
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Posts: 1368
From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
Registered: May 2001

posted 06-07-2004 02:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Matt T   Click Here to Email Matt T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Richard:
How many suits are in private hands?
Regarding complete suits in private hands - none that I'm aware of.

I know Superior sold a John Young Torso Limb Suit Assembly (the inner pressure garment) lacking one arm and at least one ITMG (made for Charlie Duke). Here are shots of a Fred Haise ITMG.

The famous ILC garage sale is reputed to have disposed of a few ITMGs for about $200 each, though these may have been mock-ups rather than flight qualified hardware.

Cheers,
Matt

mark plas
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Posts: 385
From: the Netherlands
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 06-07-2004 03:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mark plas   Click Here to Email mark plas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nasamad:
Strangely Cernan actually wore Dave Scott's actual flight suit during at least some of the Apollo 17 training.
That's something I never understood: that picture of Cernan training in Scott's actual flight suit. I mean why not use Scott's backup or training suit instead of this important piece of history. Maybe it was to save money for another training suit and Scott and Cernan are both six feet so that would certainly work.

Wasn't that Apollo 17 portrait of Cernan shot before there was an crew announcement?

Matt T
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From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
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posted 06-07-2004 05:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Matt T   Click Here to Email Matt T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's interesting that you ask about Cernan, as along with Young he may have had the most A7L suits made for him of the Apollo astronauts.

Cernan's first suit was his primary suit for use as Apollo 7 backup, SN 009. It seems he may have had only this single suit for Apollo 7, (the sequence of suit serial numbers assigned to other astros supports this) but I'm not certain.

Then he had his Apollo 10 suits - SN 044 was the flight suit and 049 the backup. I'm uncertain of his training suit, but I would guess he reused 009 from Apollo 7.

For his role as Apollo 14 backup his primary suit was SN087, he may also have re-used his Apollo 10 training or backup suit, more likely the latter. As an aside, I believe backup crews were only issued two suits rather than the three of the prime crew.

For Apollo 17 his flight suit was SN 328, his backup 330 and (as has been mentioned) Scott's flight suit 315 for training.

Interestingly on the matter of Scott and Cernan, I have seen a Cernan Apollo 14 EVA glove that had been re-issued to Scott (with the ILC tags overwritten in red pen with Scott's name and a new serial number) presumably as an Apollo 15 training suit glove. This updating included reclassifying the glove from A7L to A7LB, so it looks like not much changed between the two models as far as the gloves were concerned.

Hope that helps!

Cheers,
Matt

------------------
www.spaceracemuseum.com

nasamad
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Posts: 2121
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 06-07-2004 06:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nasamad   Click Here to Email nasamad     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mark plas:
Wasn't that Apollo 17 portrait of Cernan shot before there was an crew announcement?
I found the original crew announcement, it was on August 13, 1971 (Announcment MSC 71-56).

That is four months before the portrait was taken. All I can guess at is that the patch was still being worked on as neither Evans or Schmitt have patches on their suits either.

Adam

John Charles
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Posts: 339
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 06-10-2004 02:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for John Charles     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I wonder if anyone have any insights into any ILC products built for Grissom ca. 1966?

There was a story in Florida Today a few years ago about ILC, including an interview with a seamstress who was working on a suit for Grissom. Except I have never been able to find out what kind of suit ILC was making for Grissom -- his pressure suit for Apollo 204 was made by David Clark Co.

Rick Mulheirn
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Posts: 4167
From: England
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 06-12-2004 02:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Mulheirn   Click Here to Email Rick Mulheirn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Matt T:
The famous ILC garage sale is reputed to have disposed of a few ITMGs for about $200 each, though these may have been mock-ups rather than flight qualified hardware.
Matt is right about a couple of ITMGs being sold at the ILC clearance sale. I understand one made for John Young sold for $100.

I understand that at least one Apollo suit, don't know wheher it was training or flight, went missing from the NASM collection; again, I don't know whether it was out on loan at the time. It is beleived to be in private hands.

Regards,

Rick.

APG85
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Posts: 306
From:
Registered: Jan 2008

posted 02-02-2008 06:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for APG85     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mark plas:
That's something I never understood: that picture of Cernan training in Scott's actual flight suit.
Why would a flown lunar suit be used for EVA training? Just curious.

Rick Mulheirn
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Posts: 4167
From: England
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 02-07-2008 11:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Mulheirn   Click Here to Email Rick Mulheirn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Unless I am mistaken, post flight used Apollo suits were earmarked "Class III"; they would not be used in flight again.

NASA regularly re-used materials and continues to do so today; suits were no different. Why degrade a pristine suit when there are "scrap" suits to hand. It is all down to money.

Even today, suits used in the WETF facility at JSC are often flight used "cast offs"

Regards,

Rick

Lou Chinal
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Posts: 1306
From: Staten Island, NY
Registered: Jun 2007

posted 03-21-2008 03:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lou Chinal   Click Here to Email Lou Chinal     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Does anyone out there know the story behind this suit? I heard the story about McDivitt being offered the LM spot on Apollo 13 (maybe). But the Apollo 13 & 14 crew used the older suits with the zipper up the back. The side zipper was not used until Apollo 15 (I think). Another thing is the name tag, it says "J McDivitt". The older suits just had the last name on them. This is not the suit he wore on Apollo 9.

-Lou

John Charles
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Posts: 339
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 03-21-2008 08:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for John Charles     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lou Chinal:
Does anyone out there know the story behind this suit...
The photo was taken for the 1971 series of astronaut portraits in white space suits. A few astronauts had personal A7LB suits from current flight assignments. The rest shared a few suits, to which were affixed their own personalized name tags. I have seen the memo ordering name tags for these suits. Also in this series are photos of Jack Swigert in a CDR or LMP version of the A7LB -- he was never assigned to such a mission -- and Cernan in an A7LB with his Apollo 10 patch affixed to it -- again, an impossible combination.

My evidence? In about 1978, I asked astronaut Story Musgrave why his publicity photo showed him wearing the OFT (STS 1-4) suit, when he was never going to be assigned to one of those missions. His reply was to the effect that, during Apollo, they all had their pictures taken in Apollo suits, and in the Shuttle era, they all had their pictures taken in Shuttle suits.

------------------
John Charles
Houston, Texas

Lou Chinal
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Posts: 1306
From: Staten Island, NY
Registered: Jun 2007

posted 03-22-2008 05:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lou Chinal   Click Here to Email Lou Chinal     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks John! I'm glad someone else out there spotted it.

-Lou

NAAmodel#240
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Posts: 312
From: Boston, Mass.
Registered: Jun 2005

posted 03-25-2008 10:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for NAAmodel#240   Click Here to Email NAAmodel#240     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rick Mulheirn:
I understand that at least one Apollo suit, don't know wheher it was training or flight, went missing from the NASM collection; again, I don't know whether it was out on loan at the time. It is believed to be in private hands.
Wasn't there a midwesterner who owned a car museum who reportedly owned Armstrong's backup moon suit and was having it flown on the Space Shuttle?

Robert Pearlman
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Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 03-25-2008 10:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There was a report of such a suit but a search of the museum's website today returns no results for anything related to the space program, let alone Armstrong.

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