posted 10-05-2007 11:34 PM               

While Dr. Aldrin has every right to charge for his autograph and to sell commemorative flown items such as flags, covers, etc., does anyone else feel that the following lot should be in a museum?

Apollo 11, 1969, FLOWN LUNAR MODULE Timeline Book. (10.5x8.5") This complete book consists of three-ring pages (with original slightly rusted snap rings) Nos 1-23 ("Flight Plan") and pages Nos 1-15 ("Rendezvous Timelines and Relative Motion Trajectories") and front and back card covers. It is THE book actually created by NASA for Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin to use during their lunar stay. It covers every minute from the time they entered the Lunar Module until they redocked with the Command Module in lunar orbit (with the exception of their EVA which is detailed in its own Checklist). This unbelievable document is filled with handmade notes, notations and check marks made during man's first visit to the lunar surface. (continued here)

posted 10-08-2007 01:15 PM               

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Originally posted by yeknom-ecaps:
If the space program had been a private venture I would bet very little of this material would have made it to the market.

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With all the material signed as going to lunar orbit and/or the moon's surface its a wonder that there was any room in the capsule to move around!

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posted 10-09-2007 07:53 AM               

The material that is out there now was disposable items that NASA allowed the astronauts to keep. The Smithsonian reviewed material and kept the good artifacts.

I have made a fairly informal study of what the astronauts have owned based on actually seeing the collections of four moonwalkers, talking to other astronauts about their collections and having collected flown artifacts over the years.

Having said the above, if you look at the auctions, then you will see a lot of flags, patches and medallions. You will then see individual checklist pages and maps. Rarely, do you see a flown piece of hardware.

Consider that the average Apollo mission carried between 20 and 30 checklists. There were at least four starcharts as well as a similar number maps on each mission. Then you break these artifacts up page by page or break up each map section by section (The Orbital descent monitoring chart has about 20 map sections on average).

Then understand that the average checklist has 30 leaves in it, then you may understand why it seems like there is so much material out in the market.

You also have to look at the fact that there were 43 pre-shuttle astronauts that flew in space and you begin to get the idea that there is a good amount of material out there in each collection.

posted 10-09-2007 08:01 AM               

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Go back through the past 10 years of auction catalogs, and catalog all the astronauts' personal items that have been sold from just Apollo 11. They would barely fill one command module locker.

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posted 10-09-2007 09:27 AM               

The perception one is left with in Buzz Aldrin's case is that his motivation for financial gain has superseded any obligation to properly protect and preserve important artifacts from the first lunar landing (even if he were in financial duress, this may be understandable but still not a justifiable position).

posted 10-09-2007 10:12 AM               

On the private company side - has anything been noted that Mike Melvill or Brian Binnie have to sell from their SpaceShipOne flights into space? I have seen some "official" company carried items for sale.

posted 10-09-2007 11:35 AM               

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Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Go back through the past 10 years of auction catalogs, and catalog all the astronauts' personal items that have been sold from just Apollo 11. They would barely fill one command module locker.

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I appreciate Larry's point that the astronaut's themselves may only have had fairly modest amounts of material for personal retention but in terms of sheer bulk and volume it seems that NASA and/or crew 'presentoes' have accounted for a large body of flown items. The Apollo 15 crew's gift to Slayton of a LM/CSM umbilical appeared recently, an Apollo 12 surface flown emergency wrench gifted to Al Worden on the backup crew sold on Farthest Reaches. It's worth remembering that because of these direct gifts of mission hardware the moonwalkers aren't the only astronauts with flown lunar items. Either of these artifacts would have made a serious dent in the weight restrictions of an astro's PPK.

When you then factor in the items removed/lost/stolen from museums (the stolen list of flown hardware from the Cosmosphere included two more lockers while we're on the subject ) then a truer picture of the quantity of material in circulation emerges. And as I've said before on this subject, there are several astronauts and/or their estates that have not publicly offered any items yet. Anyone seen anything directly from Anders, Schmitt, Young, Mattingly or Armstrong?

Cheers,
Matt

posted 10-09-2007 02:28 PM               

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Originally posted by yeknom-ecaps:
...but that the COMPANY would have sold it and potentially reinvested it rather than INDIVIDUALS profiting from the sales.

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Using Buzz Aldrin as an example, he runs both the for-profit Starcraft Boosters, Inc. and the non-profit ShareSpace Foundation. What if the sale of his artifacts are going to support those activities?

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On the private company side - has anything been noted that Mike Melvill or Brian Binnie have to sell from their SpaceShipOne flights into space?

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posted 10-09-2007 05:08 PM               

The original television that John Logie Baird built is in the Science Museum in Kensington London. It is dismantled and stored in the cellar (and has been for many years along with untold other treasures), its site now occupied by a garbage collection of notice boards explaining how he did it. This is the function of colleges.

The Tower of London has nearly an entire floor equipped with video projectors, straw and barrels. The purpose? To show what London might have been like if the gunpowder plot had succeeded! The top walk of Tower Bridge which has magnificent views over London has a VDU machine with the same views, I presume because the public are too lazy or stupid to just look out of the window.

posted 10-09-2007 06:00 PM               

The Smithsonian was granted access to all material at NASA.

The Apollo astronauts were allowed to keep disposable items. Many items that the astronauts kept from the lunar surface were actually to be disposed of on the lunar surface, or in lunar orbit with the jettison of the LM, as an issue of weight. Especially for the CG of the command module upon reentry. One particular astronaut was incensed when he found out that his fellow crew mates had stowed souvenirs on board without telling him. He had to calculate the weight for the reentry and any miscalculation could have serious consequences.

While I agree with you about the breaking up of checklists and the importance of the Apollo 11 timeline checklist as historical artifact, many of those artifacts were supposed to be left behind. Which gets us back to why the astronauts own them after all these years.

Now Buzz is selling that checklist as a complete piece. He is going to attempt to sell it at $300,000 (since Buzz sold the LM startup checklist for $200,000 at the 2003 Swann auction, the $300,000 price tag is not unreasonable). The timeline consists of 20 leaves. I figure an institution will probably by buying this checklist as there are not many of us out there with that type of disposable income. It also means that a buyer with $300,000 or more would have to sell each leaf for over $15,000 to make a profit at this time. Based on prior sales of Apollo 11 flight plan and Apollo 11 lunar surface checklist pages over the last several years that is not likely to
happen.

The astronauts traditionally offered to split this material that was left behind. If you ask Buzz, he would probably tell you that both Armstrong and Collins had a chance to keep some of the material left over from the flight and chose not to keep any of it.

Many of the astronauts felt that way. Also, many crews did split up this material too. You can see it in other astronaut sales.

I also agree with Poofacio (is that Latin?) about museums and their ability to only display, on average, about 5 to 10 percent of their collections.

In reality, the researcher is only looking for the information contained on the checklist. Whether artifact containing the needed information is flown or not means very little to them. It is why NASA scans all Shuttle checklists now, so the information available to researchers via the internet upon request from NASA.

posted 10-09-2007 07:49 PM               

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Originally posted by Larry McGlynn:
Many items that the astronauts kept from the lunar surface were actually to be disposed of on the lunar surface, or in lunar orbit with the jettison of the LM, as an issue of weight. Especially for the CG of the command module upon reentry.

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Now Buzz is selling that checklist as a complete piece. He is going to attempt to sell it at $300,000 (since Buzz sold the LM startup checklist for $200,000 at the 2003 Swann auction, the $300,000 price tag is not unreasonable). The timeline consists of 20 leaves. I figure an institution will probably by buying this checklist as there are not many of us out there with that type of disposable income.

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posted 10-09-2007 09:37 PM               

I refer you to other threads that have posed this same argument in the past to no avail.

I will say that those protected items on the lunar surface are most probably destroyed by now. They were never meant to withstand a 500 degree change in temperature every two weeks, meteoric bombardment and solar radiation. The only thing that is standing is the descent stage and some bits of metal.

I have witnessed the same argument on the salvage of maritime artifacts from salt water shipwrecks. The corrosive effect of salt water desolves most wrecks over time and turns them into dust and yet, some maritime expert wants to leave the artifacts where they lay in the ocean to be seen by no one.

Ironically, I am on your side and it is why I have tried to purchase as many of complete checklists as possible and this one is not within my budget.

I would suggest you email Buzz at his website and tell him how you feel. Who knows maybe he will take your advice.

posted 10-12-2007 01:43 PM               

Your comment about Michael Collins ("Am curious how Collins, as first director of NASM would weigh in on the recommended disposition of this artifact") is very interesting. Collins retained a number of the CM manuals he used on the flight and they are on exhibit at the Air and Space Museum. The display states (as of a year ago) that they are on loan from him. Collins did not give them to the museum. He will eventually have to decide what he wishes to do with his own unique, "priceless" relics of Apollo 11. Will he sell them, or give them to NASM or just leave them to his heirs to decide what to do? My own view is that they are his property and I think he (and Buzz) can do whatever they choose with these items. The one request I would make, as others have already noted, is that if they choose to sell them they should make sure there is a public record of the complete manuals with all the notes for future researchers to access.

posted 10-20-2007 04:06 PM               

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Originally posted by Larry McGlynn:

Now Buzz is selling that checklist as a complete piece. He is going to attempt to sell it at $300,000 (since Buzz sold the LM startup checklist for $200,000 at the 2003 Swann auction, the $300,000 price tag is not unreasonable). The timeline consists of 20 leaves. I figure an institution will probably by buying this checklist as there are not many of us out there with that type of disposable income. It also means that a buyer with $300,000 or more would have to sell each leaf for over $15,000 to make a profit at this time.

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posted 10-20-2007 06:11 PM               

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Originally posted by LCDR Scott Schneeweis:
But how fulfilling would that be to us and future generations who want to gain a first person visual/tactile reaffirmation of history - the answer should be pretty obvious to us as collectors - having a direct connection with an artifact gives us many intangible benefits that cant be digitally replicated.

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