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  NASA Watch criticizes former Congressman for selling flown patch

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Author Topic:   NASA Watch criticizes former Congressman for selling flown patch
Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 08-01-2004 12:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From NASAWatch.com:
29 July 2004: NASA Presentation to Congressman Jay W. Johnson for sale on eBay

Editor's note: Have a look at this item on eBay. "Rare presentation piece from NASA to Congressman ... The Space Shuttle Atlantis Patch (featuring all 7 astronaut names) for this flight (STS-81) is also on this presentation piece with the inscription: "Presented to The honorable Jay W. Johnson in appreciation of your support of the United States space program."

Some people spend their entire careers at NASA without ever receiving something that has flown in space. The least that this former Congressman could have done if he did not want to keep the award would be to donate it to a school somewhere instead of hocking it for $200.

Considering that recent flight OFK manifests have shown that as many as 500 patches fly per mission, this presentation is not as rare as NASA Watch editor Keith Cowing implies. Their rarity is attributed to it reaching the market - as most are kept by the person to whom it was presented as a family memento.

With that knowledge, what do you think? Is the Congressman wrong for selling this (assuming he is the one doing the selling)?

(As an aside, this is not the first time that Cowing has criticized those who have sought to sell flown memorabilia. He posted a similar sentiment [that the items should be donated rather then sold] in relation to the most recent Swann auction. For those who collect flown and ground-used equipment and hardware, do you think Cowing's objections have validity?)

SpaceAholic
Member

Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 08-01-2004 03:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SpaceAholic   Click Here to Email SpaceAholic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How is this sale directly attributed to the Congresman? Isn't there a possibility that a secondary recipient (perhaps a family member or friend acquired ownership and subsequently is selling?)

If it is the Congressman, unethical, if gifted to somebody else from the Congressman and the secondary recipient elects to sell - fair game.

Matt T
Member

Posts: 1368
From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
Registered: May 2001

posted 08-01-2004 05:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Matt T   Click Here to Email Matt T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Donated? To whom and by whom?

Danno
Member

Posts: 572
From: Ridgecrest, CA - USA
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 08-01-2004 11:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danno     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAholic:
How is this sale directly attributed to the Congresman? Isn't there a possibility that a secondary recipient?
I think Scott called it. I can't imagine the House Representative of Wisconsin would retire to the Reston, VA area and open up an eBay account to sell a flown patch presentation. Much more likely that he gave it to an aide who did not appreciate it as well as one of us would have.

Was it from NASA Watch or the Inquirer?

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 08-01-2004 11:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
NASA Watch provides a bit of evidence that there is a link between the auction and the Congressman. The eBay seller's name is "mintdir". Now take into consideration the following:
Collectors Universe Appoints Former U.S. Mint Director Jay W. Johnson as Director of Business Development, PCGS

"Collectors Universe, Inc. (Nasdaq: CLCT), the leading provider of value-added grading and authentication services and products to dealers and collectors of high-end collectibles, today announced the appointment of Jay W. Johnson, former Director of the U.S. Mint under the Clinton Administration, as Director of Business Development for the Company and its various strategic business units."

A question though: how is a former Congressman selling one of the items he received while in office different then a former NASA employee (even astronaut) selling one of the items he received while with the space agency?

Danno
Member

Posts: 572
From: Ridgecrest, CA - USA
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 08-01-2004 12:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Danno     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It was a gift, wasn't it? Even though it seems a bit ungrateful, I imagine Senators receive many similar tokens from many organizations over the years. Heck, look back in your Superior and Aurora auction books and you'll see Gordon Cooper's ceremonial key to New Orleans, etc.

NASA made sure the moon rocks they handed out were NOT gifts, but if you give someone a gift it is really theirs to do with what they please. So NASA better make sure they go to people who really want them.

While I would agree that the item would be better off in maybe the Wisconsin state capitol or maybe a school named after him, it is really his to do with as he pleases. Besides, it will probably go to a good home now.

fuzzfoot
Member

Posts: 177
From:
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 08-01-2004 06:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fuzzfoot     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think that the sale of gifts like this are fine, so long as it is legal, and the seller is willing to accept possible critisism from others.

I agree with Danno that it is probably going to a better home anyways. I even considered bidding, but the 0 feedback turned me away.

Larry McGlynn
Member

Posts: 1255
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 08-02-2004 01:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Larry McGlynn   Click Here to Email Larry McGlynn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As a collector of flown space artifacts as well as a collector of maritime artifacts, I tend to disagree with Mr. Cowing about his general statement concerning the sale of flown and unflown artifacts from the space race.

The owner of any object received as a gift has the right to do with it as he pleases. I guess it could be called the American Way or Capitalism at it's best. I do agree though that the sale of a presentation artifact given to you as a gift is tacky. It's still the owner's choice as it is Mr. Cowing's choice to disagree with the sale of that item.

I also disagree with Mr. Cowing about the matter of whether the astronauts should sell flown artifacts to the general public instead of gifting them to museums or educational institutions. My main reason for disagreement is from what I have seen in various maritime, space, aviation and science museums. I have been inside their vaults and they have one thing in common and that is a fair amount of excess material that will never see the light of day. Now I admit there maybe a few exceptions, but in general, this is true.

As an example, it broke my heart to find Chesley Bonestell's mural of the lunar surface that hung at the Boston Museum of Science during the 1960's had been ripped off the museum's wall, transferred to the NASM and is currently deteriorating in a storage area. I have been told the mural cannot be restored.

Based upon my research either on site or via the web, most of these artifacts are already duplicated in the major air and space museums here in this country. A tour of the NASM facilities and the their website, as an example, will show many of the items sold over the years to have duplicates at the museum. So where will the excess artifacts go?

There is only so much display space that a museum has, so why not allow items that were planned for disposal by NASA be sold?

The argument of preventing the private sale of space artifacts reminds me of the marine archeologist's argument against the private salvaging marine artifacts from wrecks such as the Titanic, Andrea Doria or other countless shipwrecks in the oceans of the world.

Marine archaeologists rail against the private or commercial salvage of any shipwreck as a loss to the public of valuable historical items. Unfortunately, by the time, archeologists get the time and money to document these wrecks they will be gone. The example of the private salvage of the Andrea Doria artifacts brings history and substance to an event that is slowly fading with each new generation. Professional archaeologists have yet to visit the site of the Andrea Doria. The ship is quickly turning into a "whaleback" as the superstructure collapsed after fifty years of chemical and mechanical weathering on the wreck. This is just one minor example. I could quote many major ones if time were to permit.

Mr. Cowing has publicly stated his distaste toward the private sale of space artifacts by the astronauts. Should astronaut artifacts be given over to museums? Will the museums restore and display the artifacts for the public? Does the astronaut have the right to sell these items? Since I have talked about what I have seen in the bowels of museums, I feel I have already answered the aforementioned questions concerning the museum donations.

So let's talk about the astronauts and their sales of their private collections.

During a meeting in 2000, NASA, the NASM, the OIG and high-ranking officials from other space and aviation museums met to discuss the matter of the private sale of space artifacts by astronauts. Their own conclusion was that with the exception of spacesuits and stolen items, the sale of items deemed disposable by NASA was all right.

Such items were artifacts that would have been left on the surface of the moon at the time of LM liftoff or presentation material. Examples such as personal items from the astronaut's PPK bag, maps, charts, checklists, PLSS fragments, medallions and flags were cited as allowable for sale.

Astronauts have made personal decisions concerning their collections of material. Some have donated their entire collection to a particular museum, some of sold or given away everything and some have done a combination of both practices. The astronauts shouldn't be faulted for attempting to cash in on the current market for space artifacts. The market is there and has been pretty good for the astronauts since the big boom of 1999.

Which leads us to the collectors.

Are collectors demons for buying the private material and do they hoard it away from the public? Are collectors the last stop before the artifact deteriorates to dust? Do collectors help keep artifacts in the public eye that may lie buried in a museum vault or astronaut's basement?

While museums tend to store much excess material, collectors with the help of the internet have begun to display more of the artifacts that may be left hidden from public view in a museum or astronaut's home.

As an example, I have begun to restore, create provenance for and display both on the internet and in my home many pieces of my space artifact collection. There are many other excellent examples of artifact display on the internet.

I use many of the artifacts during lectures on the race to the moon in various local schools. By allowing the school kids to touch and hold artifacts that touched the lunar surface, they get a much better understanding of exactly just what this country accomplished during the Apollo missions.

My home has become a museum in itself. It is many a time that people will get the "nickel tour" of the house. So people are getting the chance in many instances to see, touch and hold artifacts that would be sealed under glass or possibly stored away from view.

As for restoration and protection, I, as well as many other collectors have been working hard to either restore, protect or save artifacts from deterioration and destruction. Whether it has been the archival sealing of an artifact in UV protected neutral Mylar or completely restoring a famous painting that was allowed to sit in a garage for 20 years, we collectors have been working to maintain our artifacts for the long term. Which is good, because most of these items have been sitting in a basement, garage or storage facility for 35 years or more.

As for a loss to the museums, many collectors offer their collections on loan to any museum. I know of three examples where collectors have either offered to donate their collections or loan their collections to a local museum. The effort has been met with mixed results. Only one such offer was accepted, but after much effort by the collector. This collector's story is in the collectSPACE reference archives.

There is one space artifact collector, who has started his own museums for space artifacts and rare manuscripts. He maintains seven such manuscript libraries in California, New York, South Carolina and Washington DC. All at his own expense.

The future holds much promise for the space collecting market. I also believe that several of these artifact collections are destined for museums in the short term future upon the death of the collector as gifts and donations. In the long term (100 plus years), many of these artifacts will find their way to museums and institutions as many rare books have done since the dawn of the printed page.

How many of these rare items would be thrown out or cast aside by succeeding generations, if not for their purchase by interested collectors? The space artifact collector has been a boon to the preservation and maintenance of these artifacts and will continue to be in the future.

spaceuk
Member

Posts: 2113
From: Staffs, UK
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 08-02-2004 04:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceuk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with the majority of what Larry just said and Mike earlier on.

Its a 'sad case' but many collections may well end up with museums on owners death - either through their choice or because their dependents really do not know what they have and 'give items' away to museums and similar.

The problem with museums is that they may well display the artefacts fairly soon after the owners bequeathed them but,after that, will be sent to 'underground storage' - possibly never to see light of day again unless really really unique item?

This isn't 'me' saying this - this is three museum curators that I have had conversations with here in UK when I have put on space displays in last couple years !

In two cases they took me to their underground labyrinths and showed me other non-space collections that had been bequeathed. Some had been there for some 100+ years having been from Victorian times!
In fact, they were contemplating selling off some items to raise desperately needed cash for the museums!

As I'm headed for my twilight years I begin to wonder what to do with many of the items.Most I would prefer to sell to members like ourselves - the cash going to my wife to help support her in later life.

One or two really important items may be destined for chosen museums but I haven't made that final decision yet. The Will states everything to be auctioned currently!

collshubby
Member

Posts: 591
From: Madisonville, Louisiana
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 08-04-2004 08:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for collshubby   Click Here to Email collshubby     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't see a problem with the Congressman selling it if was given to him, for him. It is no different than a NASA or a NASA contracted employee selling theirs.

Now, if the Congressman accepted it on behalf of the people of his district or state, and tried selling it that is a different thing altogether.

Personally, if I was the Congressman, I would be giving it to the school I attended or something like that. But it is his, and to each is own.

All times are CT (US)

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