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Author Topic:   The cost of flying a flag to the moon
mensax
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Posts: 861
From: Virginia
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 03-15-2004 07:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mensax   Click Here to Email mensax     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Has anyone ever heard what it cost to fly a PPK flag, or a Robbins Medallion to the Moon... and bring it back? I suppose it's just a matter of a little math.

Does anybody know the cost of the Apollo program?

I have heard that all of the combined PPK items flown to the Moon wouldn't fill an average size suitcase. Would you think that would be about 25 pounds?

Then all we would need is the wieght of one of the little flags, and a medallion, anyone have a sensitive scale? Or, care to make a guess?

Robert Pearlman
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From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 03-15-2004 07:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The total weight of the Astronaut Preference Kits (as they were referred to at the time):
Lunar Module
The APK's to be carried on board the Lunar Module will be limited to 0.5 pounds per astronaut or a total weight of 1.5 pounds.

Command Service Module
The APK's to be carried on board the Command Service Module will be limited to 5 pounds per astronaut or a total weight of 15 pounds.

The figure most often cited for the total cost of the Apollo program is $25 billion.

Matt T
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Posts: 1368
From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
Registered: May 2001

posted 03-15-2004 08:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Matt T   Click Here to Email Matt T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I make that 132 pounds of lunar flown material (24 astronauts x 5.5 pounds), and that's not including all the flown charts, checklists, sample bags, suit patches, toothbrushes, pencils, constant wear garments, gloves, spare food, dental floss, locker handles, lockers (!), EVA rails, water guns, umbilicals, tool kits, Hasselblads, kapton foil, ablative heatshield segments, spacecraft components and lunar dust that the astronauts brought back.

I'd guess the suitcase comparison still holds true for surface artifacts but it's starting too look more like a couple of cupboards full for the items that were 'flown to the moon'.

So what's the biggest surface flown artifact in private hands? Can anyone top the Hasselblad that was sold in the late 90s?

spaced out
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From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 03-15-2004 09:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That 0.5lb limit per astronaut for the LEM is impressively low. I know from mailing CDs that a CD album and CD single packaged together with a bit of cardboard and a padded envelope weighs almost exactly that. Of course a little silk flag doesn't weigh a lot in comparison... anyone have a super-sensitive balance?

mensax
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From: Virginia
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 03-16-2004 10:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mensax   Click Here to Email mensax     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Let's see... 132 pounds of PPK items at a cost of $25,000,000,000.

That means that for every pound of items flown to the Moon in a PPK the US spent $189,393,393.93.

...and with only 9.5 lbs going to the lunar surface, that would work out to $2,631,578,000 per pound!

Now, I'm not trying to say that this is what the US got for it's money. There is no bigger fan of the space program than I. I guess what I'm after is a greater appreciation of the value and rarity of these flown items.

(I wish I knew how many flags it took to weigh a pound.)

And, of all those PPK items, I wonder, how many will ever be available to purchase? How many were thrown away, or are owned by museums, dignitaries, or collectors and will never be available? Most of them?

I never thought about the fact that there are far fewer pounds of PPK items than there are lunar rocks.

cosmos-walter
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From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003

posted 03-16-2004 11:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cosmos-walter   Click Here to Email cosmos-walter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If we take the total costs of moon landing missions, we rather should divide it by the total mass brought back to earth after manned missions flown to moon - except of the astronauts himself.

This would take into consideration, that e.g. the moon rocks and Apollo capsules also have some value.

mensax
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From: Virginia
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posted 03-16-2004 12:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mensax   Click Here to Email mensax     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cosmos-walter:
This would take into consideration, that e.g. the moon rocks and Apollo capsules also have some value.
Oh, for sure! What I wouldn't give to have one of the capsules setting in my basement... or a Moon rock on my desk. But, I guess what I'm trying to figure out here is the costs incurred of the items that you, or I, can have the opportunity to own. PPK items in particular.

spaced out
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From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 03-16-2004 02:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
PPK contents are one thing but don't forget the OFKs - Official Flight Kits. This is where NASA carried stuff to be given out after flights to people on the program and to dignataries on the post-flight goodwill tours etc. Much of the material on the market probably comes from the OFKs not PPKs.

Robert Pearlman
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From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 03-16-2004 02:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have never seen nor have I been able to even locate a source for the OFK manifests from the Apollo missions.

Matt T
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Posts: 1368
From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
Registered: May 2001

posted 03-16-2004 04:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Matt T   Click Here to Email Matt T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Coming back to Noah's interest in determining "an appreciation of the value and rarity of these flown items".

As far as rarity goes I feel the key consideration isn't what Apollo cost the US government but rather the quantities of these items in circulation. From this point of view the 0.5 pounds of surface PPK per astronaut is really the key figure. But I wonder if it is the whole picture?

Dave Scott carried miniature LRV licence plates to the moon and walked on the surface with them in his suit pocket. To the best of my knowledge they were part of the official manifest. The question is - did they start there or is Scott supposed to have found time during suiting-up to unpack his PPK and drop the plates into his pocket? I would tend to believe the former. I know Apollo 15 has a whole extra dimension regarding the official/unofficial personal items, but it's not that I'm getting at.

I just wonder if there was some at least semi-acknowledged understanding that the astronauts might/could carry items in their suit pockets?

Mike Collins refers to the fact that Joe Shea (the senior suit tech) could easily have slipped an item into his pocket and asked him to carry it to the moon, and Collins would happily have taken it.

All pure speculation I know but it makes me think.

Also - 0.5 pounds is barely 227 grams. That really is almost no weight at all. I know beta cloth is light but it does weigh something. Conrad's tie tacks for example had to be at least few grams each, even if they were ultra-light aluminium. I seem to recall there were meant to be a good few of these in his PPK, like 50?

Slayton tells us that Armstrong carried the astronaut wings that the Apollo 1 crew had intended to give Slayton.

Irwin lost a friends wedding ring when the crew left their surface PPKs in the jettisoned LM, that had to weigh 10 grams.

Obviously none of these items individually cast any doubt on a 0.5 pound limit being strictly enforced, but...

spaced out
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From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 03-16-2004 05:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Does anyone have access to a super-sensitive balance?

It'd be nice to know the actual weight of a 4"x6" silk flag, a beta cloth patch, an embroidered patch etc. Those figures would be a useful companion to the PPK details.

The question of suit pockets is also an interesting one as Matt points out. If there were separate weight allowances for that kind of stuff it could easily match that of the PPK. Mind you, those mini license plates were extremely small and thin. I don't know how many he carried but the weight would probably have been minimal.

Richard
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From: Morrisonville, New York USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted 03-17-2004 09:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard   Click Here to Email Richard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm still trying to figure out why anyone really thinks this figure is so important. Yes, you can make such arguments, but I feel that they sort of miss the mark. The value of a piece really does not have any relation to it's weight.

For example, with such an argument, after any surgery I perform, I should collect every used piece of used dirty leftover suture. Then I should figure up the cost of that type of suture per package and figure up the cost per mm of suture from the package. I should then be able to sell that back to the company or another patient for that cost. If I have a needle attached, well that must cost MORE!

I guess this sort of reminds me of the Superior Auction where they were trying to sell Young's urine collection device. Yeah, that wieghed quite a bit, but I would NEVER want ANYONE's urine collection device regardless how much it cost the government to put it up into space.

spaced out
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From: Paris, France
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posted 03-18-2004 02:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Personally I'm not interested in the cost per weight side of things but I am interested in knowing what was taken where - i.e. the contents of the various PPKs, OFKs and exceptional items.

If you have a flown item it's just nice to know exactly how/where it was carried and how many others there are like it.

mensax
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Posts: 861
From: Virginia
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 03-18-2004 06:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mensax   Click Here to Email mensax     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think it's "so important" either! But, I do think that this factoid would be a great little tidbit of information to know. It is OK to be curious and to seek out further information isn't it?

I happen to appreciate such pieces of information. I've read in several books how much the Moon rocks cost per pound to bring back to Earth, how many homes the Saturn V could power, or how much a fully space suited astronaut weighs on the Moon. So, I guess I'm not the only one who enjoys the little facts.

I, myself, have never given any thought to used sutures or urine collection devices. But, obviously there are people who do. More power to them!

To each his own.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 03-18-2004 12:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Matt T:
Obviously none of these items individually cast any doubt on a 0.5 pound limit being strictly enforced, but...
Exceptions to the weight limitation were permitted, as is outlined in the Astronaut Preference Kit Policy.

Richard
New Member

Posts: 5
From: Morrisonville, New York USA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted 03-18-2004 03:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard   Click Here to Email Richard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Noah, you do make a point that these are interesting little facts to know. However, I think people sort of miss the picture in taking such factoids too seriously. Even you said, "...and with only 9.5lbs going to the lunar surface, that would work out to $2,631,578,000 per pound!"

It also always cracks me up when people talk about the cost of moon rocks in weight per cost of the Apollo program. I seem to remember that the true goal of the program was to put a man on the moon and return him safely to earth. Somehow, that cost and benefit is never taken into account. Instead, some people just try and divide the cargo weight by the cost of the Apollo mission.

In regards to your statement about sutures and urine collection devices, I think you missed the point completely. Yes, it is an outrageous example, and I felt that I presented it in that manner. Furthermore, I thought that the fact that Young's urine collection device was even auctioned would GREATLY interest you. It obviously weighs quite a bit, and from your reasoning, you would be a multimillionaire if you had acquired it.

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