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Forum:Space Shuttles - Space Station
Topic:STS-3: Jack Lousma and landing Columbia
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SpacepsychoI had the pleasure of spending quite a bit of time with Jack at various autograph shows and I asked why he never flew another shuttle mission and he told me that after STS-3, he cycled back into the crew rotation for another mission.

When he started training for another flight, he said to himself, been there done that and decided that he didn't want to dedicate himself to another 1-2 years of training, so he decided to move onto other things.

That being said, Jack is truly a class act and would never bad mouth anyone, regardless of the circumstances. In all of the conversations I've had with Jack, there is only one person who he deeply dislikes and it's not CK, but still, he refused to say anything negative about them.

I wonder how much Chris Kraft had to do with Jack's retiring from NASA. It seems that when Chris Kraft has it out for you, there's nothing that can change his mind. I wonder how many other good men have been forced to leave the program because of Kraft throwing a hissy fit.

Hart SastrowardoyoGeneral crew rotation or a specific flight? Don Peterson wrote me that he had been in training for another flight post-STS-6, but didn't say which it was.
astro-nutI had the pleasure of meeting Colonel Lousma and talking with him for about two hours and discussed the STS-3 landing with him along with other things. He basically told me the same thing about the landing as he did to Jay.

I believe that Jack handle the situation very well and performed a great landing as well. It would of have been neat to see him fly a third flight, but he wanted to leave when he did. He told me that he was in the simulator with a pilot but he couldn't recall the pilots name for training for his third flight.

Colonel Lousma is a class act 100% and one of the nicest persons you could ever meet.

Jay ChladekJust for the record, Jack didn't say if he had a discussion with Kraft. That I got from another source (assuming it isn't just a rumor). Jack just discussed the landing and didn't mention any names. My apologies if I implied that in my post above.

Indeed he is a class act and he has an air of collected coolness about him.

albatronIt sounds like Chris Kraft probably had it out with Jack when he got back to Houston probably for keeping Columbia in autoland too long when things started going bad from the start, but I do understand what Jack was trying to do and considering how hairy the approach was.

Your posting was well written and I believe, on target Jay.

In regards to the above, two things come to mind.

First, this was a test flight (STS 1-4 were). Jack was there, and better suited to make the decision than someone who never flew and wasn't there.

Secondly, Jack is one of the finest pilots (and humans) around.

I think that sums it up.

OV-105This is a pure guess. Looking back at the flights from 84 to 85 I would bet that it was for STS-11/STS 41-B.

Young was the first CDR to fly again STS-9. Engle was in DC in 1982 and came back to JSC in 1983. Mattingly was on STS-10 when it was going to be the first DOD flight which got delayed to STS 51-C. Before STS-7 flew Crippen was already on STS 41-C.

Since Brand flew on STS-5 I could see where Lousma could have been in line for the CDR spot on STS-11/STS 41-B.

sfurtawWhile I don't know how much it affected his decision to leave the program, Col. Lousma returned to Michigan upon leaving to run for U.S. Senate against Carl Levin in 1984. I still have my "Jack Lousma for U.S. Senate" t-shirt (and bumper sticker, brochure, button...).

And to add to the unanimous opinion, I also agree that he is total class.

alanh_7I toured Kennedy Space Center with Jack Lousma and spoke to him there. He talked a lot about the shuttle program.

At one point he said he and Fred Haise had been training for a shuttle mission to boost Skylab into a higher orbit. However the idea was canceled because, of Skylab's earlier than anticipated re-entry and delays to the shuttle program. I think this was also confirmed in the book "Homesteading Space, The Skylab Story" By Own Garriott, Joe Kerwin and David Hitt.

With regards to the STS-3 mission, Lousma said there was an awful wind that was blowing from alternating directions. He over rotated slightly on landing, but considering the speed they were carrying and the fact that they were flying a fairly new vehicle in poor conditions, the landing went fairly well.

He never did mention the reason he never flew again and I did not think to ask.

I can say that it would be difficult to find a friendlier, more pleasant and enthusiastic supporter of the space program than Jack Lousma no matter what happened on STS-3.

Hart Sastrowardoyo
quote:
Originally posted by alanh_7:
At one point he said he and Fred Haise had been training for a shuttle mission to boost Skylab into a higher orbit. However the idea was canceled because, of Skylab's earlier than anticipated re-entry and delays to the shuttle program.
Not to take the thread away, but Haise did confirm that he was slated for the Skylab reboost. I forget the exact phrasing, but once Skylab re-entered, he wasn't interested in a shuttle flight unless it was STS-1.

Hmmmmm.... since STS-1 was delayed at least two years, what shuttle flights had patches done by the time it flew? By that I mean, the OFT crews had been pretty much decided, except for OFT-5 and -6, which were unknown if they were needed. When did STS-3 have their patch done (and if I had Photoshop, I'd create an STS-3 patch with Haise's name and Skylab over the RMS...)

albatronJay and I have had a grand discussion offline about this. So I emailed Jack (Lousma) and shared the link to this posting with him. He says he tried to answer the posting but could not without registering so instead he sent his response to me.

I have sent it to Jay since it's his posting to add if he wished. He may want to edit some personal parts out (which of course I would too) first. If he does not, I will.

Interesting historical insight and I think you'll enjoy it. Plus it will answer all of the questions.

What a class guy, to take the time to type what he did. It only reaffirms to me, why he is one of my favorites.

Jay ChladekAlrighty, thanks to Al getting ahold of Jack and Jack being willing to tell his side of the story. That can be a problem with trying to relay stuff in the second person when I don't have the recorder running as things can get lost in the translation. Indeed I again admit I was the one that left the impression that Jack and Chris Kraft might have had a little "discussion" about this after the flight when indeed Jack made no mention of such an event taking place. As such, here it is from Jack's perspective. Of course I do admit I didn't really HAVE a way to get in touch with Jack before posting this (no excuse though). But I am glad he is able to set the record straight on it since this topic does seem to come up often. So here it is, straight from Jack's keyboard (and sincerest thanks to him for giving permission to post this and Al for asking him to do so).
Jay's account of the STS-3 approach and landing is only partially correct. He should have asked me to review his report before posting it. The most objectionable part insinuates Chris Kraft is unreasonable and that he ended my flight career because he was unhappy with the landing. That kind of speculation is out of bounds and publishing such rumors is poor journalism. Chris is objective, candid, an original space pioneer, and a dynamic, effective leader.

Reports and rumors about how the STS-3 approach was flown and what "must have occurred" (but didn't) have come and gone over the years. Interestingly, none of these reports and rumors was preceded by asking me what happened, except for the recent conversation with Jay. Incidentally, Jay and I did not discuss anything about Chris Kraft's reaction to STS-3, as alleged in his commentary.

The fact is that Chris Kraft and I have always enjoyed cordial relations both professionally and socially. In a private, post-mission conversation, he did not criticize any part of STS-3, including the landing which was within shuttle limits. He was pleased with the overall outcome of the mission and brushed off the landing as acceptable under the circumstances. I consider Chris as a personal mentor and friend in my career at NASA, and he never put me under the gun. It was made clear to me that I could command another flight, but after proceeding with early training on a flight that was about two years downstream, I decided it was time to be moving on with the inevitable next phases of life's journey before it was too late to get started. Had I been able to fly again sooner I probably would have stayed around to do so, but I made the right choice at the time and have never looked back. Life is good!

The STS-3 approach problem is simply explained by stating that the auto system, while it correctly controlled the nose of the ship on the outer glide-slope, through the preflare, and on the inner glide slope, it did a poor job of modulating the speed brakes to control the airspeed on the outer glide-slope. The auto system also fully closed the speed brakes 1,500 feet before I would have done so manually. This resulted in a substantially higher speed coming out of preflare and being closer to the ground (further down the inner glide-slope) when the gear were lowered procedurally based on airspeed (270 knots) rather than altitude (gear down was changed to 400 feet after that). I took back manual control when stabilized on the inner glide-slope by depressing the "Manual" button on the eye-brow panel; not by moving the hand-controller out of detent, as has been rumored. It was mandatory to land in manual control because the landing software was not yet fully developed and tested.

The auto system also lined-up the shuttle slightly to the right of centerline, which I decided not to correct that close to landing. In essence, the auto system did not fly the approach I would have flown manually, but it was not unsafe. So my job became one of salvaging a less than perfect approach, which I did, but not as well as I would have preferred. Further, we did get the data required by the autoland test objective, and we also proved the well-worn adage of our first flight instructors; 'To make a good landing you must fly a good approach'. Incidentally, we never experienced this speedbrake control problem in simulation. The simulators always modulated the speedbrakes in small increments to control speed perfectly. If the flight software had been installed in the simulators we would have been ready for this problem, except that we would have rejected the autoland test objective altogether until the flight software was capable of smooth speed control. We vigorously insisted on simulating with flight software installed, but this requirement 'fell through the crack' somehow in the fixed and motion-base simulators as well as the Shuttle Training Aircraft. Unfortunately, we didn't know of this oversight until we flew STS-3.

With respect to the "wheelie" right after touchdown, the nose began to drop before aerodynamic braking was complete at 160 knots, so I tried to hold it off with a short nose-up pulse on the hand-controller. The nose did not react quickly enough for me, so I gave it another short nose-up pulse. This caused the nose to rise rapidly whereupon I lowered the nose to the runway manually. I was told later there was an instability in the longitudinal control software in that landing configuration causing the unexpected pitch-up. Perhaps there was. In any case, we learned a lot with no harm done; that's why we do test flights. And that's why I have moved beyond the rumors and speculation on this whole subject, and that's why it was of little consequence to Chris Kraft.

The autoland system was scuttled after that experience because it was not "certifiable" in the aviation sense of "certification". Moreover, our experience implied that if the autoland failed close to the ground, it would force a "late takeover" in a possibly unrecoverable attitude. Thus, it would be better to not fly the autoland system down to a position that would be potentially unrecoverable. I think some sort of autoland system has been installed in case they would want to try to recover a damaged shuttle, incapable of safe reentry (like Columbia) that was abandoned at the ISS, the crew having been ferried home from the ISS in a rescue shuttle.

albatronWell I do believe that about sums it up, eh?

Classily done Jay. Especially giving Col. Lousma the chance to set the record straight. Reading his posting proves without a doubt, it was a test flight, he and Gordo were test pilots, mission accomplished. With panache.

How many would like to see a Jack Lousma bio? I surely would.

mjanovecThanks for Jack Lousma for taking the time to write his side of the story. It was a fascinating read...and also good to hear it straight from the man himself.

Count me in as someone who'd love to read a Lousma bio someday!

328KF
quote:
Originally posted by Hart Sastrowardoyo:
Hmmmmm.... since STS-1 was delayed at least two years, what shuttle flights had patches done by the time it flew? By that I mean, the OFT crews had been pretty much decided, except for OFT-5 and -6, which were unknown if they were needed. When did STS-3 have their patch done (and if I had Photoshop, I'd create an STS-3 patch with Haise's name and Skylab over the RMS...)

In a conversation I had with Jack at last year's Spacefest, he told me that the STS-3 patch artwork was still being produced as the flight neared.

Robert McCall did some original designs, with his trademark sunburst behind the orbiter. The deadline for having the patch done was coming up, and the crew still didn't have the final art, so Jack grabbed an airplane and flew up to McCall's place to see if he could hurry things along.

When he had to get home to Houston, he took back the still unfininshed work of McCall and gave it to his former commander and budding artist Al Bean.

Al put the finishing touches on the STS-3 logo and submitted the design, which was approved and became the mission patch.

MCroft04Not only would I love to see a Jack Lousma bio, I think it would be a shame if it is never written!
SpacepsychoJay and Jack, thanks for the time and effort to write the story.

On another note, I'd love to see a Jack Lousma book for a few reasons. Jack has over 700 hours the LM simulator, an equal amount in the CM, he's supported & backed up every Apollo mission and he has trained on every piece of Apollo and shuttle equipment.

Besides being someone of the highest integrity and a true gentleman, he's had a front seat to every Apollo, Skylab, ASTP and early shuttle missions. There aren't many others out there that have seen and experienced what Jack has.

Blackarrow
quote:
Originally posted by Jay Chladek:
Since Jack is a test pilot...

Reviving this 2009 thread with a small point of correction — Jack Lousma was not a test-pilot, in that he had no formal training in any test-pilot school.

That said, if commanding one of the four developmental flights of the shuttle wasn't "test piloting" then I'm not sure I understand the term! I happily associate myself with the accounts of Jack as "a class act."

davidcwagnerI was at white sands during the STS-3 landing. It was very exciting. The double sonic boom was a surprise.

The shuttle flew very wide S-turns to bleed off speed and shift from eastern flightpath to southern heading for landing. The turns were so sharp that you could see the top of the shuttle from the ground. The actual landing looked good to me. Much faster landing speed than a commercial airliner.

2008 photo of Lousma and I. I am wearing the T-shirt sold at White Sands.

I am in the crowd in the background.

damnyankee36David, I might have seen you out there that day! I was with the Air Rescue detachment in our UH-1N Hueys. We supported all of the Shuttle launches and this particular landing.

We were also in the same area as you although it sure seems like I was a lot closer!

David C
quote:
Originally posted by Blackarrow:
Jack Lousma was not a test-pilot...
Correcting your small point of correction, slightly. Or perhaps just clarifying it. You do not need to have graduated from a test pilot school to be a test pilot. The term "Test Pilot" is both a job and a qualification.

There were test pilots long before there were test pilot schools. The schools were founded to increase quality and safety by giving graduates the knowledge and experience that test pilots would acquire through years of "on the job training." Even today, for example, to join the Society of Experimental Test Pilots, you can be acceptable via the school or experience route.

There are also different types of test pilots, maintenance TPs, production TPs etc. It is quite common for them not to have graduated from a Test Pilot School.

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