collectSPACE: Messages - Reply to Topic

Space News
space history and artifacts articles

Messages
space history discussion forums

Sightings
worldwide astronaut appearances

Resources
selected space history documents

Websites
related space history websites

Forum:	Autographs
Topic:	Autopens in the news: Presidential autopens

Want to register?

Who Can Post?	Any registered users may post a reply.
About Registration	You must be registered in order to post a topic or reply in this forum.
Your UserName:
Your Password:	Forget your password?
Your Reply: HTML is ON UBB Code is ON Smilies Legend	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robert Pearlman: [B]Realize you were probably replying in jest, but no, in the eyes of the law, he cannot. It is interesting though, from both a societal and collector viewpoint, how much importance we seem to assign a scribble of ink. In some ways we assign more value to the marking than we do the man (or woman, or in this case machine) that applied it...[/B][/QUOTE]
Options	Disable Smilies in This Post. Show Signature: include your profile signature. Only registered users may have signatures.
*If HTML and/or UBB Code are enabled, this means you can use HTML and/or UBB Code in your message.

If you have previously registered, but forgotten your password, click here.

<table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width="600"><TR><td bgcolor="#000000"><TABLE BORDER=0 cellpadding=4 border=0 cellspacing=1 WIDTH="100%"><TR bgcolor="#660000"><TD COLSPAN=2><CENTER>T O P I C     R E V I E W</CENTER></TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#494949"><TD valign=top>Aztecdoug</TD><TD>There are some interesting stories about the autopen cropping up in the news today. The reason is because our president just signed some legislation in Washington DC while on vacation elsewhere.One article says many presidents going back in time have used the device. The New York Times says only our current president has ever used it. <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Politico: <A HREF="http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/autopen-barack-obama-10-facts-85720.html?hp=l1_b2" TARGET=_blank>10 facts about the 'autopen'</A> <LI>The New York Times: <A HREF="http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/03/obama-signs-tax-deal-remotely-using-autopen/" TARGET=_blank>Obama Signs Tax Deal Remotely Using Autopen</A></UL> Not trying to be political, it is just interesting to see our arch nemesis make it to the news.</TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#333333"><TD valign=top>Tykeanaut</TD><TD>I'm surprised that's legal!</TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#494949"><TD valign=top>Robert Pearlman</TD><TD>According to ABC News, "a 2005 legal study commissioned by former President George W. Bush determined that use of the autopen is constitutional but acknowledged the possibility that its use could be challenged." Here's the <A HREF="http://www.justice.gov/olc/2005/opinion_07072005.pdf" TARGET=_blank>29-page legal finding</A> [via Politico]. This shouldn't be too surprising to long-time space collectors, as astronauts have used the autopen to sign legal documents, including customs declaration forms (albeit the necessity of such forms was questionable).</TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#333333"><TD valign=top>spaceman1953</TD><TD>That is just WRONG!The papers could be transmitted to him on Air Force One and then he could sign on the plane and the paper could just stay with him or his military aide until they got back to DC. Or they could be "courier-ed" back, if there was some urgent need to do that! But I think using the autopen for his legal signature is wrong, but I still gotta go read that legal opinion!Gives the Rush Limbaugh-wannabees something to talk about...</TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#494949"><TD valign=top>Hart Sastrowardoyo</TD><TD>Not a lawyer, but how is using an autopen different from having a secretary sign for a person? </TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#333333"><TD valign=top>schnappsicle</TD><TD>Signing for a person is one thing, signing a bill into law using autopen is something quite different. I'm no lawyer either, but I can't see how that can be legal. Perhaps he signs it by hand when he returns to the office. That's the only way any of this would make sense to me.</TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#494949"><TD valign=top>Glint</TD><TD> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by spaceman1953: The papers could be transmitted to him on Air Force One...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And add even more to the man's already ludicrous carbon footprint? Why not just use a portable signing pad, like those employed by pharmacies or delivery truck drivers to verify receipt of the goods? </TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#333333"><TD valign=top>Steve Zarelli</TD><TD> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by spaceman1953: The papers could be transmitted to him on Air Force One and then he could sign on the plane...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Paying a few hundred thousand $$$ to carry a piece of paper? Isn't the deficit high enough? <IMG SRC="http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/wink.gif"></TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#494949"><TD valign=top>Robert Pearlman</TD><TD> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by schnappsicle: I'm no lawyer either, but I can't see how that can be legal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A 29 page explanation as to why it is legal can be found linked earlier in this thread, as prepared by the U.S. Justice Department. In a nutshell, among other reasons, when the Constitution was written (establishing the President must sign a bill into law), a legal signature did not require the signee to actually apply the ink to paper. He could designate someone else to sign for him or have his seal applied instead. </TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#333333"><TD valign=top>mikepf</TD><TD>Oh great, now if a bill turns out to be a disaster, he can deny that he signed it! </TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#494949"><TD valign=top>Robert Pearlman</TD><TD>Realize you were probably replying in jest, but no, in the eyes of the law, he cannot.It is interesting though, from both a societal and collector viewpoint, how much importance we seem to assign a scribble of ink. In some ways we assign more value to the marking than we do the man (or woman, or in this case machine) that applied it...</TD></TR><TR bgcolor="#333333"><TD valign=top>mikepf</TD><TD>Yes, I was joking. And yes, I also agree that the interest a sqiggle of ink can command for us is most interesting to think about. At least for me, my attitude has evolved quite a bit over time. As it is now, for my personal collection, only the signatures I've gotten personally have emotional meaning to me. My interest in an autograph is in the fact that the signature represents a personal conmnection between the signer and myself. That someone who I admire so much would take a moment, sign the item, exchange a few words, shake my hand, and maybe pose for a picture puts all the meaning and value in that blob of ink. That moment of personal contact, either on a space photo, or a Congressional bill, cannot be mechanically reproduced. </TD></TR></TABLE></td></tr></table>

Contact Us | The Source for Space History & Artifacts

Ultimate Bulletin Board Version 5.47a